planedriver Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APenNameAndThatA Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 I’m not so sure. That would require a lot of thinking. If you have a bunch of personal minimums, and stick to them, you can stay safe and not have to think through everything. <ducks for cover>. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 I’m not so sure. That would require a lot of thinking. If you have a bunch of personal minimums, and stick to them, you can stay safe and not have to think through everything. <ducks for cover>. We have a whole bunch of regulations, just so you don't have to think. Personally I'm fine with asking myself "What's the worst that can happen?" every time I do something, and not just aviation related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 So you are thinking of possible consequences. Good thing. You may also find the regulations not applied sensibly may make your decision to operate in the safest (overall) manner, difficultl at times. The overall requirement is to operate in the safest way you can at the time. (with the limited options you have). You may have to "break" another rule to do this , because you (or anybody) can't write rules to cover every eventuality... You will have to explain all this "at the Enquiry". so you better have all the reasons well covered. but being alive to do it is a good start..Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 CASA have tried to cover every eventuality in the way they write their rules, by prohibiting everything except what they allow. This, of course will fail, because you can't cover every eventuality, as you say. Asking yourself "What's the worst that can happen?" must include possible outcomes from our woeful regulators. Kept me alive so far, and I'm no spring chicken. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_d Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 While there's nothing wrong with the sentiment in the OP, and the picture of the Spit is nice, why the hell does it say "Mormon Women Stand" at the bottom? Are they required to stand every time they read the words? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APenNameAndThatA Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 While there's nothing wrong with the sentiment in the OP, and the picture of the Spit is nice, why the hell does it say "Mormon Women Stand" at the bottom? Are they required to stand every time they read the words? Well spotted. An aviation metaphor posted on an aviation thread. The plane looks like a Spitfire. I suspect that that was by accident. As for CASA regulations, I said *personal* minimums. Suppose you have a personal minimum of “I don’t take off with more than 10 kt crosswind component”, that will *prevent* you from thinking about the risks and winding up a victim of get-home-itis, for example. Stated differently, you do think about the consequences of every action you take, but you do the thinking ahead of time. Actually, thinking about the consequences of every choice you make sounds a miserable way to live your life. It is impossible, also, because we make decisions every few seconds. I just checked: Google tells us that Robert D Hales was a head of the Mormon church. What a tosser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 Animals do it all the time . The more hazardous the environment the more necessary to be careful and make the right decision." Little animal in Jungle not last long if not wary" (Confucius say) No I lie, but maybe HE thought of saying it. Left to ourselves we tend to take shortcuts and chance it, more than we should. We look for the easy way. You have done it may times before and it's a piece of cake. I don't need human Factors etc. That's for others who aren't as experienced and excellent/clever as I am. Once you are thinking like this you are in dangerous territory if you keep flying. Learn from others mistakes and you don't need to make all the mistakes yourself. That's the Hard way and your luck might run out before you learn it all. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 Actually, thinking about the consequences of every choice you make sounds a miserable way to live your life. It is impossible, also, because we make decisions every few seconds A here was me thinking that calculating every landing mathematically and using an AH to judge my bank in the circuit was miserable...... It is quite possible to think about stuff before you do it.....I've done it most of my life. For the most part, you have previously thought about, I'm not talking about standing about for 5-10 minutes to think about it, although, I'm fairly sure that's what our safety legislators want us to do. Actually, I recall someone's sign off here is something about engineering failures and failure of imagination. All you have to do is have the brainpower to imagine where any scenario could take you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_d Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 Animals do it all the time . The more hazardous the environment the more necessary to be careful and make the right decision." Little animal in Jungle not last long if not wary" (Confucius say) No I lie, but maybe HE thought of saying it. The kids were watching a David Attenborough show yesterday which showed marine iguanas in the Galapagos. The baby iguanas hatch under the sand and burrow to the surface. Unfortunately, they then have to run the gauntlet of multiple snakes who gather near the hatching site as baby iguana is about the only meal they get. So as soon as these poor little buggers stick one eye above the sand, they have to take stock of the situation and judge when to freeze (the snake's vision is based on movement) or when to pull out all the stops and run like hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 I think most people are practicing risk assessment at a very early age.....Weigh up risk v consequence. What troubles me is that our regulators (and not just aviation) think that you can teach risk assessment to not so bright people using a matrix, then they wonder what went wrong when someone gets hurt. I think mostly the problem is employing the wrong person, not the wrong process. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 safety works both ways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 It's hard to go wrong if you always take responsibility for your own safety, rather than expect someone else to provide it for you. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 there is the ethical dilemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Just requires a bit more honest appraisal of one's self. Looking for someone to blame (and sue ) is part of the furniture these days.. Take it to it's logical conclusion and we will have to give up doing anything remotely risky... Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 there is the ethical dilemma How is it an ethical dilemma? Actively trying to ensure your own survival would appear to be neither a dilemma nor an ethical issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaba-who Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 While there's nothing wrong with the sentiment in the OP, and the picture of the Spit is nice, why the hell does it say "Mormon Women Stand" at the bottom? Are they required to stand every time they read the words? For what it’s worth “Mormon women stand” is the name of a group apparently. ( I just googled it - I have no prior knowledge or interest in it apart from being inquisitive). Probably that caption in the image is just an advert rather than a direction. Cut and paste below ”Latter-day Saint Women Stand Latter-day Saint Women Stand (formerly Mormon Women Stand) is a collaborative online effort to join like-minded female members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who share a desire to make a public stand as witnesses of Jesus Christ and support The Family: A Proclamation to the World.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Extensive amounts of rules and regulations regarding safety, are generally put in place to prevent idiots from killing themselves and others. As the crash rate shows, many people still take "calculated" risks - whereby their "calculations" are inherently faulty. One classic "calculated" risk that come to mind, is the attempted turnback after EFATO. Many other disastrous events can be put down to inexperience, unfamiliarity, and overconfidence. I'd have to opine, nearly all the pilots involved in disastrous events, caused by the three above reasons, rarely thought their combination of actions would end up in total disaster. This is why comprehensive training, and total familiarity with your machine, are crucial factors in avoiding disasters. Training has to cover overconfidence, and instructors have to be alert, to the overconfident, brash personalities. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planedriver Posted January 3, 2019 Author Share Posted January 3, 2019 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Extensive amounts of rules and regulations regarding safety, are generally put in place to prevent idiots from killing themselves and others. As the crash rate shows, many people still take "calculated" risks - whereby their "calculations" are inherently faulty. One classic "calculated" risk that come to mind, is the attempted turnback after EFATO. Many other disastrous events can be put down to inexperience, unfamiliarity, and overconfidence. I'd have to opine, nearly all the pilots involved in disastrous events, caused by the three above reasons, rarely thought their combination of actions would end up in total disaster. This is why comprehensive training, and total familiarity with your machine, are crucial factors in avoiding disasters. Training has to cover overconfidence, and instructors have to be alert, to the overconfident, brash personalities. Everything you will every do in your life is a calculated risk. I suspect that many of the events you mention and especially turnbacks are the result of not calculating and just doing what was instinctive. Maj Millard's demise would be a good example. He even started a thread on the dangers of turning back and knew full well that it was often fatal, yet when it came to the crunch, instinct overrode. The extensive rules and regs don't seem to have made much of a dent in the accident rates over the years in GA and Rec Flying. The point of the OP still stands I think. Regardless of whether or not there is a regulation covering it, you need to take responsibility for your safety. It won't guarantee a positive outcome, but it sure as hell improves your odds. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 How is it an ethical dilemma? Actively trying to ensure your own survival would appear to be neither a dilemma nor an ethical issue. the ethical dilemma is this, do you go to work and follow the safety rules and risk your promotion or do you ignore the safety rules and risk being injured but also get promoted because you work faster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 In over 35 years of employment I've only experienced one manager with any disregard for safety rules. For the most part in our current environment not following the safety rules regardless of their usefulness is likely to see you lose your job. And in every job I've ever worked in, any manager that thought you might actually get hurt in a process would pull you up damn fast. In any case deciding whether to get hurt or have a job is a no brainer, and hardly an ethical problem. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 this is why you are so unhappy, all day surrounded by box tickers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Maybe......My job would be awesome without that over represented bunch of parasitic clowns. On the subject of clowns, I read the other day that it's now considered offensive to clowns to refer to someone incompetent as a clown. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 what is blackwater called these days? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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