ASIC AGAIN!!!

[turboplanner]

40 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Turbs me old mate;

 

"If people just bought their ASIC cards and got on with it there would be no need for discussions, but they don't, and we get this endless moaning about them."

 

It's a very good thing for you and the rest of our, supposedly free, society, that at least some of us do not conforme, without question, to all of the Gov/bureaucracies rules & regulations.

Thanks for your kind thoughts for my welfare but I thought I had explained that I had been briefed by a Police Minister.

40 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

 

A healthy democracy requires active dissent, without it we have Russia/China/ Syria/Turkey/ sundry African and Asian countries, may be even a future Trump USA.

In our Westminster system the dissent ir ordered by the Sovereign who instructs the official Opposition to ensure that doesn't happen.

40 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

 

Democracy is imperfect and fragile - constant vigilance (questioning) is required to keep it from dying - look how close we came with dictator Scumo!

Scott Morrison didn't even start to come close to becoming a dictator; during Covid when Australia was under a State of emergency he took over some of the Ministers' portfolios, the Ministers didn't like it, and retaliated and that was the end for him. Under the States of Emergency around Australia Commanders take over and they are dictators but their time in office expires automatically.

 

When Gough Whitlam's government was elected, Gough decided to govern initially with just one Minister, Lance Barnard, and that was within the rules and no one including the Opposition made any serious objection. At a later stage of that Parliament he did get into trouble but that was over trying to govern without Supply.

40 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

I speculate that Australia is one of the most regulated, so called, democracies in the World - we have far too many illogical, poorly conceived, ineffective, redundant....... .....laws that remain "on the books" because of political/bureaucratic indifference. 

I've often thought there should be a law that makes politicians sunset two laws for every one they introduce, but the problem is the lawyers who need those old precedents. In Victoria we operate under the Motor Vehicle Act 1958. It was probably very simple in 1950, but today it seems there are dozens of streams of Acts all referring back to that Act. The Commonwealth Acts brought in for road safety and emissions. Are all still there, enabling a 1976 Falcon still operating out on the road against the 1976 standard to still be used, so there are reasons for what happens.

 

40 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

 

ASIC, as it's applied to private pilots, wishing to access small regional airfields, may seem to be but a small inconvenience (..got on with it there would be no need for discussions) however its continued existence, against common sense, is a foot in the door (small to be sure) of totalitarianism and should be condemned at every opportunity.

 

Nothing whatsoever to do with totalitarianism. It was introduced to try to prevent a repeat of some people who stole a light aircraft (or several) and launched attacks. If you want to do a google search you'll probably find the stories at that time.

 

I'll give you an example of the threat: One radicalised young man who had been ordered by his Syrian handlers to behead Police officers, take photos and use them on social media was caught in an intercept tried to stab police officers and was shot dead. Where he was shot was 7 minutes flying time from a large airport, and within 15 minutes flying time from 5 smaller airfields. I'm not saying any more than it was in Australia. He had been radicalised along with hundreds of others, just 10 km from where he was shot.

 

If you have a better idea of protecting surrounding populations from that person, using an aircraft which he or she was able to obtain easily, then by all means step up and help.

[facthunter]

Would have been easier to Hire a van and take a decent load. U/ls don't carry a lot of cargo but could take off in my backyard or any bush lane.  Nev

[kgwilson]

Every large city is within a few minutes of an airport. What has that got to do with the requirement for ASICs at small regional aerodromes and radicalised nut jobs.

[facthunter]

You should tune into some of the views expressed by intending DRONE operators who are going to be using the same sky in which you fly. Nev

[skippydiesel]

"............ I thought I had explained that I had been briefed by a Police Minister."

 

Sorry Turbs I and many others don't agree/buy it - I am not impressed that you have been briefed by any vested interest (particularly a politician) in maintaining what is, demonstrably a poorly conceived & executed, complete redundant ASIC (as it pertains to recreational level pilots and their little aircraft accessing the vast majority of RPT airfields).

 

Refr: The editor of Sport Pilot flying the length/breadth of  Australia - I haven't counted his landing  - only once was he asked for his ASIC - this alone would cause most people to question its efficacy.

 

See Nev's point above ; Think what a nasty person could do with an explosive laden drone  - You don't have to be a martyr seeking radical, to fly a drone into an airliner full of passengers.   No flight training - Minimal cost and No ASIC required.

[turboplanner]

37 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

"............ I thought I had explained that I had been briefed by a Police Minister."

 

Sorry Turbs I and many others don't agree/buy it - I am not impressed that you have been briefed by any vested interest (particularly a politician) in maintaining what is, demonstrably a poorly conceived & executed, complete redundant ASIC (as it pertains to recreational level pilots and their little aircraft accessing the vast majority of RPT airfields).

 

Refr: The editor of Sport Pilot flying the length/breadth of  Australia - I haven't counted his landing  - only once was he asked for his ASIC - this alone would cause most people to question its efficacy.

 

See Nev's point above ; Think what a nasty person could do with an explosive laden drone  - You don't have to be a martyr seeking radical, to fly a drone into an airliner full of passengers.   No flight training - Minimal cost and No ASIC required.

The people working with the actual data are probably going to keep acting on the intel Skippy.

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

The people working with the actual data are probably going to keep acting on the intel Skippy.

Fantasy!  and vested interest in maintaining the status quo.

[turboplanner]

3 hours ago, kgwilson said:

Every large city is within a few minutes of an airport. What has that got to do with the requirement for ASICs at small regional aerodromes and radicalised nut jobs.

Since you’ve publicly nominated a target class, if someone got access to your aircraft they could take out around 5000  people without loading anything into it.

[kgwilson]

7 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Since you’ve publicly nominated a target class, if someone got access to your aircraft they could take out around 5000  people without loading anything into it.

What a ridiculous statement. There are thousands of aircraft all over Australia in public and private hangars, tied down at ALAs or private strips in the open so any of them could get pinched by the radicalised nut job who is somehow able to start the aircraft and has miraculously learned to fly and become a kamikaze. I haven't done a risk anaylsis on the likelihood of this happening but at a guess I'd say it is infinitesimally small. So how would having an ASIC have any bearing at all on this.

[onetrack]

Two very large commercial airliners, one flying at 700kmh and the other travelling at 870kmh only took out around 3000 people on 11th Sept 2001, despite being loaded with 36,800 litres and 34,500 litres of Jet A-1 respectively - so I fail to understand how you could take out 5000 people with a single RA-Aus aircraft loaded with perhaps 100 litres of petrol at the very most, and unable to probably even reach 300 kmh, without the wings tearing off. It would be virtually impossible to take down any building with an RA-Aus aircraft.

 

I fully understand the need for an ASIC card for commercial airline operational areas, but the ASIC card is over-reach for probably 80% of the aviation areas of the country.

It's interesting to stop and think about the fact that all the terrorism attacks in aircraft around the world were carried out by people who had pilot training, piloting skills, and qualifications - not exactly your classic "raghead" terrorist.

 

Edited January 29 by onetrack

[turboplanner]

6 hours ago, onetrack said:

Two very large commercial airliners, one flying at 700kmh and the other travelling at 870kmh only took out around 3000 people on 11th Sept 2001, despite being loaded with 36,800 litres and 34,500 litres of Jet A-1 respectively - so I fail to understand how you could take out 5000 people with a single RA-Aus aircraft loaded with perhaps 100 litres of petrol at the very most, and unable to probably even reach 300 kmh, without the wings tearing off. It would be virtually impossible to take down any building with an RA-Aus aircraft.

 

I fully understand the need for an ASIC card for commercial airline operational areas, but the ASIC card is over-reach for probably 80% of the aviation areas of the country.

It's interesting to stop and think about the fact that all the terrorism attacks in aircraft around the world were carried out by people who had pilot training, piloting skills, and qualifications - not exactly your classic "raghead" terrorist.

 

This is an open forum.

[Area-51]

If all aircraft were fitted with an autoexplode function that a person in a box (of gender neutral nature) activated remotely, we would not need the asic security platform. Bad actors could be discreetly eliminated remotely and instantly by trained air traffic personnel. The need to check each asic applicant along with the risk of bad actors remaining unidentified by the current platform would be 100% negated. The identification of bad actors would be immediate, and strategically 100% safe and effective. A change in how this current regime is administered would provide a broad base incentive for bad persons (including those of gender neutral identity) to "not" use aircraft for traditional nefarious matters of religiously related sectorial and or ideological ill intent.
 

The current industry platform name could remain as people are now used to it and already broadly identify with the acronym.

[aro]

The problem with the ASIC is that they couldn't actually deny one to a suspected terrorist without tipping them off that they were being monitored. That would provide a tool they could use to work out which of their members was under suspicion.

 

So more than likely an ASIC would be approved anyway for someone known to be plotting something.

 

A security check where you voluntarily apply and get told the result is fatally compromised for any situation involving secret intelligence. Far more useful are security checks that you don't know are being done and won't find out the results (and I'm sure they occur).

[skippydiesel]

I suggest;

 

On a cost V Effectiveness  analysis, 

• It must be soooo much cheaper & quicker, to acquire a drone(s), fill with explosives and aim it at whatever target you choose - live to perform many more terrorist acts.

Than

• Taking many years(?) to feed/cloth, transport, brainwash a young person(s), into believing in a life of luxury & sex awaits them, if they commiting suicide in service of some mythical being, then explode themselves in a single act.

[facthunter]

And prophets go through the roof.  Nev

[skippydiesel]

50 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

I suggest;

 

On a cost V Effectiveness  analysis, 

• It must be soooo much cheaper & quicker, to acquire a drone(s), fill with explosives and aim it at whatever target you choose - live to perform many more terrorist acts.

Than

• Taking many years(?) to feed/cloth, transport, brainwash a young person(s), into believing in a life of luxury & sex awaits them, if they commiting suicide in service of some mythical being, then explode themselves in a single act.

I forgot to add - pilot training, to the cost of preparing/using the martyred one.

 

ASIC DOESN'T MAKE SENSE on any level -

• EFFECTIVENESS  - Zero. Possibly less, as lulls the public into false sense of security.
• COST - Out of all proportion to effect 
• REFLECTION - Makes our leaders look like a right load of idiots
• ANGST- Upset a small section (pilots) of the community, for no gain but little loss (votes)

 

 

i

Edited January 29 by skippydiesel

[facthunter]

They didn't need to get trained to LAND. THAT saves a lot of cost.  Nev

[Student Pilot]

How many truck drivers have to have security checks? Any person with a heavy rigid truck licence can drive a truck with a 15 ton load, a truck driven into the right target could be devastating. 

 

There are still airports in Australia where Dash 8 or Saab passengers do not get searched or x-rayed. 
As stated before ASIO have a file for every person with a pilots licence along with the associated security investigations. Don't trust ASIO? Some private contracted company can do a better job by supplying a plastic card and checked by the bloke who mows the grass on a council airfield. What a joke.

[LoonyBob]

16 hours ago, turboplanner said:

This is an open forum.

Indeed. I would point out that a road vehicle could also carry and dispense the sort of payload in question. My T83 would barely get through plate glass, and you'd carry more walking with a backpack...

 

[turboplanner]

7 hours ago, LoonyBob said:

Indeed. I would point out that a road vehicle could also carry and dispense the sort of payload in question. My T83 would barely get through plate glass, and you'd carry more walking with a backpack...

 

Open Forum means the details are searchable world-wide.

[BrendAn]

13 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Open Forum means the details are searchable world-wide.

what is your point.

[aro]

It's not exactly news that cars and trucks can be used for terrorist attacks. People have been doing it literally as long as I can remember.

 

Wait till you find out about fiction books. 600+ pages on the details of planning new and inventive attacks...

[spacesailor]

SHH

ASIC  Might hear you ,

Or , " Big brother is watching you " .

spacesailor

Edited January 31 by spacesailor
It changed my spelling

[facthunter]

ASIC is a CARD.  Nev

[skippydiesel]

6 hours ago, aro said:

It's not exactly news that cars and trucks can be used for terrorist attacks. People have been doing it literally as long as I can remember.

 

Wait till you find out about fiction books. 600+ pages on the details of planning new and inventive attacks...

Saw a documentary years ago - it said the first ever car bomb was used, I think by The Mob, in Chicago, USA 

 

The IRA in N Ireland, used a dump truck, to get close enough, to the national airport to fired mortars out of the back. Pretty sure they didn't have a single ASIC.😁

Edited January 31 by skippydiesel