Puzzling Wartime aircraft crash - 11th March 1942 - Point Cook

[onetrack]

I know there were a large number of training accidents in Australia during WW2, but I was under the impression there were fairly good records of every major crash - particularly where there were multiple fatalities.

However, I have come across a crash during a training exercise, that occurred in the sea off Point Cook, Vic., on 11th March 1942 - whereby 4 RAAF men were killed, and the aircraft obviously totally destroyed.

 

However, nowhere can I find any official record of this crash, nor any record on any aviation crash database - nor any indication of even what type of aircraft it was.

I am completely puzzled by this, as virtually all major air crashes during WW2 have a record with details of the crash, somewhere. Only the newspapers of the following week carried a few short paragraphs about the crash, and that is all.

 

I would be obliged if anyone knows anything about this crash, and the aircraft type (or even the details), that are listed somewhere, but which cannot be found on the Web. There may be just a plaque or some memorial at Point Cook, perhaps.

 

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8237473

[rgmwa]

A very similar crash occurred on Julia Percy Island off Portland VIC around the same time. Also four killed on a training flight. That aircraft was an Anson so possibly the Point Cook accident may have been the same type. There is a memorial and plaque to the Julia Percy airmen at the Crags, a.rocky bit of coastline between Port Fairy and Yambuck opposite the Island.

[pmccarthy]

Accident between Sale and Laverton, according to Webb's service records. He was an instructor. I didn’t look at the other service records. It is strange that there is no record in the usual lists.

edit…Peter’s had just completed a Hudson conversion course.

Edited December 30, 2022 by pmccarthy

[pmccarthy]

Found the accident report. It was an Anson W2369

[pmccarthy]

[turboplanner]

5 hours ago, onetrack said:

I know there were a large number of training accidents in Australia during WW2, but I was under the impression there were fairly good records of every major crash - particularly where there were multiple fatalities.

However, I have come across a crash during a training exercise, that occurred in the sea off Point Cook, Vic., on 11th March 1942 - whereby 4 RAAF men were killed, and the aircraft obviously totally destroyed.

 

However, nowhere can I find any official record of this crash, nor any record on any aviation crash database - nor any indication of even what type of aircraft it was.

I am completely puzzled by this, as virtually all major air crashes during WW2 have a record with details of the crash, somewhere. Only the newspapers of the following week carried a few short paragraphs about the crash, and that is all.

 

I would be obliged if anyone knows anything about this crash, and the aircraft type (or even the details), that are listed somewhere, but which cannot be found on the Web. There may be just a plaque or some memorial at Point Cook, perhaps.

 

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8237473

I found the records; if it's a relative be aware that I found it a distressing story, and that doesn't happen often.

 

I found the basics on three of them:

Series A 705 Control Symbol 163/51/121 Peters, Kenneth Charles, Flying Officer, Service No 827 casualty repatritaion, aircraft Anson W2368. Corio Bay, Vic 12/3/1942

 

Series A 705 Control Symbol 163/63/214 Webb John Lagnley, Flight Lieutenant, Service No 1371, Casualty, Repatriation Aircraft Anson W2369, Corio Bay, Vic 12/3/1942, buried Brighton Cemetery.

 

Series A 905 Control Symbol 163/90 214 Barker Robert John, Warrant Officer, Service Number 2931, Casualty Repatriaton, Aircraft  Anson W2369, Point Cook, Victoria 11/3/1942.

 

With the name and service number, the complete records for these people will either be available, or the Australian War Memorial will a priority the record record search for a fee of around $30.00

 

Harold Lincoln was missing from this group, so I ran an individual record search for him and found 65 pages of records.

 

Series A 9310 Lincoln Harold Gravell, Service No 21892, born Korumburra, Vic, enlisted Sydney, records 1939-1948

The records include glowing testimonials all hand written including his old school noting that he'd spent 7 years studying at Ivanhoe Grammar School, only to have been killed beore he could get into the war.

He was the W/T operator.

Included in the records was a Court of Inquiry report (Page 31 of 65)

The aircraft was on a night training exercise from Sale to Laverton

It was a dark night, something went wrong with the aircraft and the PIC opted to land on the sea perhaps rather than risk hitting a tree/object.

A successful distching was achieved.

All crew succeeded in launching and getting into the dinghy, but later abandoned it.

They had attached a hand pump to the air release valve and this would have let the air out of the dinghy.

The sea was rough and it was dark.

They died of exposure and drowning.

 

Let me know if you want the records and I'll send the full record.

 

 

 

[onetrack]

Thanks for the prompt and informative response, men. That is great information. Turbo, no, no relative is involved - it's just that I was surprised that so little exists, by way of readily available records for this crash - and certainly not in any aviation crash database. I know if you start digging deep into military records, this information can be ferreted out, but that can become quite involved. I would appreciate the full record.

 

I'm quite surprised at the number of Avro Anson crashes during WW2, and particularly during training. Was their handling a trap for unwary recruits, or was it simply that the rush to train large numbers of aircrew, resulted in flying in weather that would normally be avoided?

[facthunter]

Anson props can't be feathered but there's nothing particularly hazardous about how the Plane handles. The Hudson was more critical.  Nev

[turboplanner]

6 minutes ago, onetrack said:

Thanks for the prompt and informative response, men. That is great information. Turbo, no, no relative is involved - it's just that I was surprised that so little exists, by way of readily available records for this crash - and certainly not in any aviation crash database. I know if you start digging deep into military records, this information can be ferreted out, but that can become quite involved. I would appreciate the full record.

 

I'm quite surprised at the number of Avro Anson crashes during WW2, and particularly during training. Was their handling a trap for unwary recruits, or was it simply that the rush to train large numbers of aircrew, resulted in flying in weather that would normally be avoided?

Combination of aircraft design that relied on pilot skills not to spin etc, pilots pushed through the system at high speed, low hours training. There were more Beaufighter students killed at Mildura than died in action. By the end of WW2 I think this had been substantially reduced and the instructors after the war were probably the best the industry ever had, then along came Cessna, Piper, Grumman, Beechcraft with their fly themself designs and the fatalities came down to what we see today.

 

In this particular case the pilot safely ditched the Avro Anson, but somebody designed a life raft with a deflation port the same size and thread as the pump port, and killed them all. 

[pmccarthy]

A pic from my family album.

Edited December 31, 2022 by pmccarthy

[turboplanner]

31 minutes ago, onetrack said:

Thanks for the prompt and informative response, men. That is great information. Turbo, no, no relative is involved - it's just that I was surprised that so little exists, by way of readily available records for this crash

 BTW, this wasn't a crash, it was a ditching (they called it water landing) performed under IMC - almost complete darkness.

 

[turboplanner]

and in rough sea conditions.

 

[onetrack]

Perhaps that then explains why the event is missing from any aviation crash database, and from any websites associated with military losses. Probably just officially recorded as drownings by misadventure. 

[turboplanner]

42 minutes ago, onetrack said:

Perhaps that then explains why the event is missing from any aviation crash database, and from any websites associated with military losses. Probably just officially recorded as drownings by misadventure. 

No, the records will be there, and calling a spade a spade. Over the years I've been amazed at the attention to detail when a soldier has been killed.

 

WW2 is still being transcribed by the AWM but you can have it extracted for a fee. WW! transcriptions are complete including the Battalion diaries.

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by turboplanner

[old man emu]

2 hours ago, pmccarthy said:

A pic from my family album.

This photo caught my eye due to the lack of the dorsal turret. Obviously not needed when the aircraft was being used for training purposes. Taking the turret out maybe made space for one more place for either a radio-operator of navigator undergoing training.

 

Here's a pretty poor photo of the Anson Front Office  Taken at the War Memorial, Canberra. They could have used a better "through the screen" image.

 

 

Talk about training accidents. How about wiping out 16 in one night and not a shot fired in anger?

 

https://aviadoradeceilan.medium.com/the-ansons-of-bairnsdale-ce1efefc2c14

[IBob]

I grew up near High Wycombe, in Buckinghamshire. Ansons were a common sight overhead in the '50s, I believe they operated out of Booker airfield and were used for navigation training.

[facthunter]

I think they were operating out of Moorabbin till into the 60's. Wooden bits eventually grounded them. Engines and U'C bits were all over the place and some Anson motors ended up in cropdusting EP  9's . One was at Bankstown. Nev

[Thruster88]

One of the more bizarre incidents involving an Anson aircraft. Was down at Howlong a few years back on a job and came across the road side display at Brockelsby. 

 

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1940_Brocklesby_mid-air_collision

[facthunter]

I wouldn't like the job of repeating that occurrence.  Fair bit of luck there.  Then the poor fella gets hit by a bus on  his bike?  Nev

[old man emu]

39 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Fair bit of luck there.  Then the poor fella gets hit by a bus on  his bike?

Like the cat rescued from a tree by the firemen and then gets run over by the fire truck

[onetrack]

5 hours ago, IBob said:

I grew up near High Wycombe, in Buckinghamshire. Ansons were a common sight overhead in the '50s, I believe they operated out of Booker airfield and were used for navigation training.

Well, I'll be ...! My Dad's family came from High Wycombe area in the early 1800's. My grandfather (Dad's father) was born at Princes Risborough. His father, I believe, was a lawyer in High Wycombe, circa late 1700's, early 1800's.

[old man emu]

7 minutes ago, onetrack said:

My Dad's family came from High Wycombe area in the early 1800's.

I don't think IBob is old enough to have known them.

[peterg]

On 31/12/2022 at 4:33 PM, facthunter said:

think they were operating out of Moorabbin till into the 60's.

Brain & Brown had them - their hangar was next to Flinders Island Airlines ( 2 x B18 & others)