old man emu Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 There is a big difference in culpability between the operator of any machine who loses control of it due to an unprecedented medical incident (heart attack, stroke, sneezing attack, or even an insect bite on the face) and a loss of control due to a failure to follow a the medical advice to manage a chronic condition. In the Daylesford incident, the driver had a chronic condition; had a means to obtain real-time information, and the means to deal with any adverse information. His failure to act on that information goes to prove an element of the charge against him - driving in a manner dangerous to the public. As to the comment that it took some time to lay charges against him, that's not unreasonable. Police are dealing with a complex investigation that not only includes a complete recording of the evidence and the obtaining of witness statements, but, as they say, the job's not over until the paperwork is done. The man faces the loss of his liberty for very many years. That fact must be held in the highest regard, as does the fact that a judicial Inquiry must find that the allegations made by the Crown have been found to be undoubtedly correct. Another delay will be caused by waiting for the completion of the Coronial Inquests into the deaths. Those Inquests will produce the evidence to prove that the beings named in the indictment were humans; that their deaths occurred as a result of the collision "in, near, or upon" the vehicle, and the date of death. Also remember that if a person was seriously injured in a collision, and died within a year and one day of the incident, all other causes of the death being eliminated, then the death is attributed to the collision, which would change the allegation from one of causing Grievous Bodily Harm to causing death. 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2tonne Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 A self-declaration medical would have saved me a lot of time an money about 10 years ago. I went for a class 2 medical, as a fit 40 year old, and all the tests were fine except the final dip stick into the urine. It detected traces of blood. My DAME said a positive dipstick test for traces of blood in urine would often be a false positive. Nevertheless, he sent me for an ultrasound of my kidneys. That showed my kidneys were in great shape. CASA wouldn't accept it. CASA demanded I see a urologist to be further assessed and have a CT scan. The urologist looked through the paperwork and thought it was ridiculous, he told me I was perfectly healthy and he would have told me to go away if not for CASA's requirement for testing. Anyway, $600 for a CT scan and a letter from the urologist and I finally got my Class 2 medical. Whole process cost me about $1,000 and took 6 months. Absolute freaking waste of time and money. And, of course, my kidneys are still perfectly heatlhy and I have had zero health issues in the last 10 years. That's my 2 cents worth. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 They are just covering their A$$ and your cost and delay is just TOO bad for you. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Tuncks Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 I reckon 2 tonne has a legitimate grievance. They ( CASA) behaved disgracefully and it is not right that he should have to spend his own money like this. Alas, who is there to complain to? My only suggestion is RAAus, and they are compromised by the need to keep acting like the capos did with the SS. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 15 minutes ago, 2tonne said: A self-declaration medical would have saved me a lot of time an money about 10 years ago. I went for a class 2 medical, as a fit 40 year old, and all the tests were fine except the final dip stick into the urine. It detected traces of blood. My DAME said a positive dipstick test for traces of blood in urine would often be a false positive. Nevertheless, he sent me for an ultrasound of my kidneys. That showed my kidneys were in great shape. CASA wouldn't accept it. CASA demanded I see a urologist to be further assessed and have a CT scan. The urologist looked through the paperwork and thought it was ridiculous, he told me I was perfectly healthy and he would have told me to go away if not for CASA's requirement for testing. Anyway, $600 for a CT scan and a letter from the urologist and I finally got my Class 2 medical. Whole process cost me about $1,000 and took 6 months. Absolute freaking waste of time and money. And, of course, my kidneys are still perfectly heatlhy and I have had zero health issues in the last 10 years. That's my 2 cents worth. Blood in the urine can also be prostate cancer and that might have been the reason that further tests were required. The problem with self certification is that some people simply don't report that they have a medical issue, even though they know they have a problem. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 This issue has nothing to do with self certification or being truthful. They won't stick their neck out because there's nothing in it for them to do so. . Re your first line IF that was likely as an indication Of prostate cancer he would Have Done A PSA test and maybe more and even the urologist didn't see any of that as necessary. Nev. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2tonne Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 21 minutes ago, turboplanner said: Blood in the urine can also be prostate cancer and that might have been the reason that further tests were required. The problem with self certification is that some people simply don't report that they have a medical issue, even though they know they have a problem. Prostate cancer wasn't a concern, probably because of its very slow progression and my age at the time. I was asked about kidney stones, but had never had one, and still haven't. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff_H Posted December 14, 2023 Author Share Posted December 14, 2023 1 hour ago, 2tonne said: A self-declaration medical would have saved me a lot of time an money about 10 years ago. I went for a class 2 medical, as a fit 40 year old, and all the tests were fine except the final dip stick into the urine. It detected traces of blood. My DAME said a positive dipstick test for traces of blood in urine would often be a false positive. Nevertheless, he sent me for an ultrasound of my kidneys. That showed my kidneys were in great shape. CASA wouldn't accept it. CASA demanded I see a urologist to be further assessed and have a CT scan. The urologist looked through the paperwork and thought it was ridiculous, he told me I was perfectly healthy and he would have told me to go away if not for CASA's requirement for testing. Anyway, $600 for a CT scan and a letter from the urologist and I finally got my Class 2 medical. Whole process cost me about $1,000 and took 6 months. Absolute freaking waste of time and money. And, of course, my kidneys are still perfectly heatlhy and I have had zero health issues in the last 10 years. That's my 2 cents worth. Just about the same happened to me except that the specialist wrote an immediate reply virtually telling casa how ridiculous their claim that there could be a problem was not valid. It was cysts on the kidney issue benign and large proportions of the population have them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Student Pilot Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 Lets get away from the highly legalese, blame shifting and culpability side of CASA's incompetence. If a DAME issues a medical, why is that medical totally safe for four months but after that you are unsafe till the CASA "specialists" peruse your data? Surely if you are that unsafe why is it safe to continue flying for 4 months!!!!! How many more pilots are there in the system compared to 20 yers ago? How many more staff is in the CASA medical department compared to 20 years ago? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2tonne Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 6 minutes ago, Geoff_H said: Just about the same happened to me except that the specialist wrote an immediate reply virtually telling casa how ridiculous their claim that there could be a problem was not valid. It was cysts on the kidney issue benign and large proportions of the population have them. Yes, a similar story. The ultrasound detected one small cyst on one of my kidneys. I was told it was of no concern and that it is very common to have at least one by the time you reach your 40s. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 19 minutes ago, Student Pilot said: Lets get away from the highly legalese, blame shifting and culpability side of CASA's incompetence. If a DAME issues a medical, why is that medical totally safe for four months but after that you are unsafe till the CASA "specialists" peruse your data? Surely if you are that unsafe why is it safe to continue flying for 4 months!!!!! How many more pilots are there in the system compared to 20 yers ago? How many more staff is in the CASA medical department compared to 20 years ago? These recent posts are related to a DAME being unreasonable, mistaken or screwing up along with CASA being accused of not knowing about medicine to the degree that the pilots did. Let's say all of the cases posted were correct; that leaves more than 16,000 Australian pilots to discuss. The health of all those 16,000 has to be judged up front, and at regular intervals. CASA is responsible for that. If you declare you are fit to drive or fly, you are responsible for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanR Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 If only casa would do things in a reasonable time. 29 business days after doing my medical and I am still waiting ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Student Pilot Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 25 minutes ago, turboplanner said: The health of all those 16,000 has to be judged up front, and at regular intervals. CASA is responsible for that. If you declare you are fit to drive or fly, you are responsible for that. Haven't CASA given the authority for DAMEs to cover that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2tonne Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 44 minutes ago, turboplanner said: These recent posts are related to a DAME being unreasonable, mistaken or screwing up along with CASA being accused of not knowing about medicine to the degree that the pilots did. Let's say all of the cases posted were correct; that leaves more than 16,000 Australian pilots to discuss. The health of all those 16,000 has to be judged up front, and at regular intervals. CASA is responsible for that. If you declare you are fit to drive or fly, you are responsible for that. I think the issue is that CASA ignore the medical experts. Does that mean CASA itself is making the medical determinations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff_H Posted December 14, 2023 Author Share Posted December 14, 2023 20 minutes ago, Student Pilot said: Haven't CASA given the authority for DAMEs to cover that? I believe that casa have committees that look into your fitness to fly. Takes a while to assemble a lot of people. Committees are great no single person can be responsible! Consultants are often used as a means of deflecting blame,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 Too many stories here to make any sense of what should happen, so I'd recommend that if you aren't certain you talk to a DAME. I could be well worth the cost of a consultation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 (edited) CAMELS are a HORSE designed by a committee. I used to pay tennis with an Avmed chief and it's gone down a mile since then. One of them used to mark your file Psychologically unstable IF you challenged anything he said. I challenged some things on my personal file and after a while they said it had gone missing. They couldn't find it anymore. HA ha pull the other leg. There's RUBBISH written there and you can't check it either. Nev Edited December 14, 2023 by facthunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Student Pilot Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 5 minutes ago, turboplanner said: Too many stories here to make any sense of what should happen, so I'd recommend that if you aren't certain you talk to a DAME. I could be well worth the cost of a consultation. 😂 What a great idea! My DAME has no clue why CASA make the demands they do. His last question to CASA as to why still goes unanswered. I don't think some of you know what is involved in a medical. If you live in a rural area with little or no net coverage you can't even log onto the CASA portal to do the pre medical questionnaire. Well you can but it keeps timing out. Any other tests required you have to go to a major regional or capital city to access specialists. Those same highly regarded specialists CASA then ignore and do their own diagnosis. What is the good of getting a leader in the particular field of medicine make a report giving you the all clear then only to have CASA ignore it. DAMEs are getting harder to find, they are leaving the CASA system because it's getting too hard. Turbo, you seem to be a CASA apologist, are you employed by CASA as a consultant to defend them? Do you do a class one medical? If so how long does it take to get your class one medical issued by CASA after you see a DAME? How many pilots over 45 do you know who get a medical issued immediately after the DAME signing your medical OK? Do you think 4 months is a reasonable time to get a decision from CASA when the medical only goes for 12 months? Why any delay? How many licences are processed a year by how many people? DAMEs are not the problem, never have been. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackc Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 I just wonder how many pilots fly without a current required medical? Any statistics? There will never be any method to check self declared medical status either? So the whole thing is a crock…… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoonyBob Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 7 hours ago, IanR said: If only casa would do things in a reasonable time. 29 business days after doing my medical and I am still waiting ! "Cost Recovery" (thanks Mr Keating) means CASA is under-resourced too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 12 hours ago, Student Pilot said: 😂 Turbo, you seem to be a CASA apologist, are you employed by CASA as a consultant to defend them? No, CIA, but don't tell anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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