Uncontrolled airports. Which call to make in circuits if you’re only going to make one call?

[turboplanner]

  On 21/06/2024 at 1:56 AM, facthunter said:

I'm not inventing anything. Match your response to the situation. This has nothing to do with Clearances etc We also don't want people too afraid they will use a "Wrong word". Keep it simple. Keep it short.  .  Nev

Expand  

I didn’t quote you. You understand the whys.

[pmccarthy]

 

Crosswind is a location... it is leg flown by planes that have taken off and have turned to join downwind. It is not a safe place to join, as they may not see you coming!

 

Midfield crosswind is further back - over the runway itself - and over the top of any aircraft taking off.

 

 Circuit procedures are given in non-controlled-aerodrome-circuit-procedures.pdf (casa.gov.au) Note that midfield crosswind is the ONLY crosswind join.

 

The example broadcast from the CASA website is:

 

Tyabb traffic, C172, ZTQ joining midfield crosswind, runway 17, Tyabb.

 

see Radio use at CTAFs (when YMMB, YMAV and YMEN Towers are closed) | Civil Aviation Safety Authority (casa.gov.au)

 

It isn't complicated!

 

 

 

[facthunter]

Descending onto another plane  is an extreme hazard. Final is the most common place for it to happen. Descending on a midfield track assumes you get to circuit level by the time you get on the downwind leg. Till you level your  wings you can't see any plane  entering downwind directly. except in a tandem seated High wing or a single seat. the  same. .  Nev

Edited June 21, 2024 by facthunter

[pmccarthy]

The CASA circuit advice is to descend to circuit height on the dead side before you cross the runway at midfield crosswind.

[BrendAn]

  On 21/06/2024 at 1:28 AM, turboplanner said:

The requirements we fly under are Australian Regulations, so procedures in the US, UK, superseded circuit procedures, or dreamed up as a good idea or "what I do" don't apply.

The aim should be to minimise the number of different broadcasts rather than invent more.

 

Here's the link from "Be Heard, Be Seen, Be Safe"  document June 2023

https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-05/radio-procedures-in-non-controlled-airspace.pdf

 

Note that early in the piece it says: "Australian Non-controlled or Class Gis different to most parts of the world."

 

Calls ALL the time are on Page 4

Calls when there is other traffic are on Page 5

 

Regs involved are on Page 7

 

It's not a difficult read; it's only 7 pages long!

 

 

Expand  

It still surprises me that radio calls are optional not mandatory in uncontrolled airspace. Anyone can drop into an airfield with no communication at all. While it may be the wrong thing to do it is legal.

[Red]

  On 21/06/2024 at 2:20 AM, pmccarthy said:

 

Crosswind is a location... it is leg flown by planes that have taken off and have turned to join downwind. It is not a safe place to join, as they may not see you coming!

 

Midfield crosswind is further back - over the runway itself - and over the top of any aircraft taking off.

 

 Circuit procedures are given in non-controlled-aerodrome-circuit-procedures.pdf (casa.gov.au) Note that midfield crosswind is the ONLY crosswind join.

 

The example broadcast from the CASA website is:

 

Tyabb traffic, C172, ZTQ joining midfield crosswind, runway 17, Tyabb.

 

see Radio use at CTAFs (when YMMB, YMAV and YMEN Towers are closed) | Civil Aviation Safety Authority (casa.gov.au)

 

It isn't complicated!

 

 

 

Expand  

Ah thanks we call that an overhead join and its commonly used here in uncontrolled and controlled aerodromes

[turboplanner]

  On 21/06/2024 at 5:51 AM, BrendAn said:

It still surprises me that radio calls are optional not mandatory in uncontrolled airspace. Anyone can drop into an airfield with no communication at all. While it may be the wrong thing to do it is legal.

Expand  

The link I posted doesn't say you can drop into an airfield with no communication at all.

It provides some benchmarks.

If someone sues you for negligence after a collision, a defence could be that you were complying with the industry benchmark at the time. (It's the reverse of the old prescriptive system where you had to comply with someone else's rule or get fined).

 

 

[BrendAn]

  On 21/06/2024 at 6:31 AM, turboplanner said:

The link I posted doesn't say you can drop into an airfield with no communication at all.

It provides some benchmarks.

If someone sues you for negligence after a collision, a defence could be that you were complying with the industry benchmark at the time. (It's the reverse of the old prescriptive system where you had to comply with someone else's rule or get fined).

 

 

Expand  

I never looked at your link, I was just saying how radio calls are not mandatory at uncontrolled airfields.

I was surprised when I learnt that a while back that's all..

[kgwilson]

Radios are not mandatory in uncontrolled airspace so calls can not be mandatory either. It is up to the aerodrome operator to determine if radios must be carried and used within their 10 mile radius CTAF and published in ERSA. This is the case at South Grafton.

[BrendAn]

  On 21/06/2024 at 6:31 AM, turboplanner said:

The link I posted doesn't say you can drop into an airfield with no communication at all.

It provides some benchmarks.

If someone sues you for negligence after a collision, a defence could be that you were complying with the industry benchmark at the time. (It's the reverse of the old prescriptive system where you had to comply with someone else's rule or get fined).

 

 

Expand  

Do you have to come out with some crap about getting sued in every conversation.  You can make a point without that surely. 

Edited June 21, 2024 by BrendAn

[BrendAn]

  On 21/06/2024 at 6:48 AM, kgwilson said:

Radios are not mandatory in uncontrolled airspace so calls can not be mandatory either. It is up to the aerodrome operator to determine if radios must be carried and used within their 10 mile radius CTAF and published in ERSA. This is the case at South Grafton.

Expand  

This is what confuses me. I always thought circuit procedures and radio calls would be set in stone not mandatory. 

[facthunter]

IF you're 1/2 smart you will use everything that makes it safer for you, provided you still use your Mk1 Eyeballs in case someone else is a complete Dickhead. " But I HAD a clearance" won't count much posthumously..  Nev

[skippydiesel]

  On 21/06/2024 at 2:20 AM, pmccarthy said:

Crosswind is a location... it is leg flown by planes that have taken off and have turned to join downwind. It is not a safe place to join, as they may not see you coming!

Expand  

Cross wind in this context (joining the circuit) is a direction not a location - simply put its flying across the wind/active runway prior to joining. The only other X wind is on climbout again a direction. 

  On 21/06/2024 at 2:20 AM, pmccarthy said:

 

Midfield crosswind is further back - over the runway itself - and over the top of any aircraft taking off.

 

To be precise its between the centre of the runway and the upwind (departing) threshold - no aircraft should be climbing anywhere near circuit height between these two points and no aircraft should be descending below circuit height

 

 Circuit procedures are given in non-controlled-aerodrome-circuit-procedures.pdf (casa.gov.au) Note that midfield crosswind is the ONLY crosswind join.

 

The example broadcast from the CASA website is:

 

Tyabb traffic, C172, ZTQ joining midfield crosswind, runway 17, Tyabb.

 

see Radio use at CTAFs (when YMMB, YMAV and YMEN Towers are closed) | Civil Aviation Safety Authority (casa.gov.au)

 

It isn't complicated!

 

Expand  

Thanks for that reference pmccarthy - it appears I am mistaken about the use of the word "midfield" - my apologies.

 

There does seem to be a bit of official confusion on this point - the circuit joining/landing diagram just refers to joining cross wind and shows the aircraft joining at the approximate midfield point on the downwind leg..

 

As midfield is the recommended joining point, it still seems to me that using the word "midfield" is redundant - I almost always used the phrase "Sonex #### joining X wind from the dead side"  and have never used the word "midfield" as listening pilots will know at what point I will join and turn down wind (midfield).

 

 

Edited June 21, 2024 by skippydiesel

[facthunter]

I might try one from the WILD side and see what results I get. where did you get "dead side' from ?  Nev.

[turboplanner]

  On 21/06/2024 at 6:50 AM, BrendAn said:

Do you have to come out with some crap about getting sued in every conversation.  You can make a point without that surely. 

Expand  

No I don't really; I've recommended all PICs sit down with a PL lawyer and find out for themselves for not much more than an hour's flying cost, and it's interesting to see that most in business and mining are aware and don't pose these crazy questions, but plenty haven't done anything about updating themselves.  It doesn't seem to dawn on people what the reason is for CASA/Airservices etc withdrawing a very workable prescriptive rule system that was used in the past.

[turboplanner]

  On 21/06/2024 at 6:42 AM, BrendAn said:

I never looked at your link, I was just saying how radio calls are not mandatory at uncontrolled airfields.

I was surprised when I learnt that a while back that's all..

Expand  

If you are flying you should have looked at that link very early in training.

[Thruster88]

A Question. I think I was taught many years ago when I got a PPL that all turns above the circuit (over flying)  were to the left. If joining crosswind to a RIGHT hand circuit like we now have at Cowra on 15 would this not make the mid field the only option. Perhaps this is why pilots should spell it out.

 

Skippy saying you are joining cross wind FROM THE DEAD SIDE is just cluttering the air waves, is there another way to join cross wind?

[BrendAn]

  On 21/06/2024 at 7:58 AM, turboplanner said:

If you are flying you should have looked at that link very early in training.

Expand  

As usual you are insinuating I don't fly.Well I do fly and I have not seen that link in the raaus syllabus. We do a radio section and practice radio communication. Have you ever been a member of raaus or flown ultralight aircraft. How long is it since you actually flew yourself. It was last week for me and hopefully another 4 hours this weekend.

[Red]

  On 21/06/2024 at 7:19 AM, facthunter said:

I might try one from the WILD side and see what results I get. where did you get "dead side' from ?  Nev.

Expand  

No idea about the terms usage in OZ but its a common term in UK and refers to the opposite side of the runway to the active circuit (pattern), when doing an Overhead join the next call after "overhead" is "descending deadside"

 

UK Version

https://www.caa.co.uk/publication/download/13138

 

NZ Terminology

https://www.asms.co.nz/2014/01/caa-releases-asms-report.html

 

 

Perhaps I should leave this discussion as its plainly in the context of Australian procedures?

Edited June 21, 2024 by Red

[turboplanner]

  On 21/06/2024 at 9:00 AM, BrendAn said:

As usual you are insinuating I don't fly.Well I do fly and I have not seen that link in the raaus syllabus. We do a radio section and practice radio communication. Have you ever been a member of raaus or flown ultralight aircraft. How long is it since you actually flew yourself. It was last week for me and hopefully another 4 hours this weekend.

Expand  

OK then if "anyone" is flying "they" should have looked at that link very early in training.

In fact "they" should be up to speed with that document before first solo.

 

"Someone" might train in RAA, but "they" also fly in Airservices and CASA airspace and have to be up tp speed with their requirements also.

[Thruster88]

  On 21/06/2024 at 9:19 AM, turboplanner said:

 

 

"Someone" might train in RAA, but "they" also fly in Airservices and CASA airspace and have to be up tp speed with their requirements also.

Expand  

There is only one airspace. 

[BrendAn]

  On 21/06/2024 at 9:19 AM, turboplanner said:

OK then if "anyone" is flying "they" should have looked at that link very early in training.

In fact "they" should be up to speed with that document before first solo.

 

"Someone" might train in RAA, but "they" also fly in Airservices and CASA airspace and have to be up tp speed with their requirements also.

Expand  

I think that is the difference. You quote casa and I only know what I am taught in raaus. You refer a lot to controlled airspace such as Moorabbin. Somewhere my training doesn't allow me to fly. If I continue to RPL which I have started then I will no doubt see a lot more of what you are referring too.

[BrendAn]

  On 21/06/2024 at 9:08 AM, Red said:

No idea about the terms usage in OZ but its a common term in UK and refers to the opposite side of the runway to the active circuit (pattern), when doing an Overhead join the next call after "overhead" is "descending deadside"

 

UK Version

https://www.caa.co.uk/publication/download/13138

 

NZ Terminology

https://www.asms.co.nz/2014/01/caa-releases-asms-report.html

 

 

Perhaps I should leave this discussion as its plainly in the context of Australian procedures?

Expand  

I thought procedures were the same worldwide, 

[Thruster88]

  On 21/06/2024 at 9:23 AM, BrendAn said:

I think that is the difference. You quote casa and I only know what I am taught in raaus. You refer a lot to controlled airspace such as Moorabbin. Somewhere my training doesn't allow me to fly. If I continue to RPL which I have started then I will no doubt see a lot more of what you are referring too.

Expand  

Your RAAus training  should, would, hopefully, have taught the various airspace types and the requirements. 

[BrendAn]

  On 21/06/2024 at 9:28 AM, Thruster88 said:

Your RAAus training  should, would, hopefully, have taught the various airspace types and the requirements. 

Expand  

Certainly did but I admit I don't give much thought to anywhere but my local area at the moment. Although we are smack in the middle of military airspace  here so grounded when RAAF are flying. and also oil rig helicopter transit areas too.

Oz runways is a great tool  too.

 

Edited June 21, 2024 by BrendAn