Air India crash

[Jabiru7252]

In many countries, the first people at the scene of a crash, be it a plane, train or bus crash a LOOTERS.

[Moneybox]

First reports said the plane took off at a runway intersection so may have picked up something off the runway end damaging the engines. The report on Flightradar24 said they backtracked down the runway before takeoff using the entire length of the runway. Too much media drama thrown in to believe the initial reports.

[Arron25]

5 hours ago, Moneybox said:

First reports said the plane took off at a runway intersection so may have picked up something off the runway end damaging the engines. The report on Flightradar24 said they backtracked down the runway before takeoff using the entire length of the runway. Too much media drama thrown in to believe the initial reports.

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Definitely only used half..FR seems to have stopped when they lost power/electrics

[onetrack]

The story about the aircraft taking off using only half the runway is a furphy, initiated by faulty tracking that only commenced once the aircraft was halfway down the runway. The runway is 3,500 metres long, and a Dreamliner needs 2538M to take off.

 

Add in high local temperature at takeoff, a full aircraft at near MTOW, and it would need all of that 2538M to get airborne. No-one in their right mind would take off at the halfway mark of the runway, with a full commercial flight at MTOW on a stinking hot day.

 

If the aircraft initiated the takeoff at the halfway mark along the runway, it wouldn't have even been anywhere near V1 when the runway ended.

 

The CCTV shows an aircraft climbing satisfactorily for about the first 500 feet, and the questions to be answered is why the undercarriage wasn't retracted as soon as it left the ground, and why the flaps appear to not be set to takeoff position.

 

The flaps may have been extended for takeoff, the video quality is too poor to determine what their position is. It seems impossible that an experienced Captain would takeoff with no flaps extended - that is so basic to aircraft operation, and there are so many warnings if you try to, the chances of that happening is near zero. 

 

MenTour pilot has a fairly good discussion about the flight on FB, get past the first few minutes, and they get into the nitty-gritty. It's all speculation anyway, until the FDR and CVR are examined. Both have been recovered.

 

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/air-india-crash-flight-ai-171s-last-takeoff-analysed/articleshow/121811830.cms?from=mdr

 

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1207383097733798

 

Edited yesterday at 03:16 AM by onetrack

[IBob]

Question: who has possession of the flight recorders, and who gets to extract and analyse the data?
Okay, that's 2 questions.......

[onetrack]

The general technique is the aviation authority of the country where the aircraft crashed collects and analyses the recorders, with the NTSB assisting in the process of opening and studying them.

[BrendAn]

What can cause 2 engines to fail . This is one scenario being discussed because the rat deployed.

It will be very interesting to know what happened especially a dual engine failure if that happened.

[kgwilson]

Bird Strike. There is no indication of birds in any videos but then the video quality is fairly poor. If you can't see whether there was any flap deployed you'd hardly be able to see birds either.

 

In the Korean Jeju Air 737-800 crash last year at Muan none of the early videos showed birds but that was the cause of one of the engines to fail completely. Later videos, possibly enhanced, showed a large flock of birds.

[IBob]

1 hour ago, onetrack said:

The general technique is the aviation authority of the country where the aircraft crashed collects and analyses the recorders, with the NTSB assisting in the process of opening and studying them.

If something went wrong with the aircraft..........let us hope not, but if.........whoever has those recordings is sitting on dynamite............(

[onetrack]

The RAT being deployed is seriously open to question. People are basing their decisions on the RAT being deployed, on grainy, low quality video with pixellation. It's not possible to determine if this was the case.

 

The chances of a double engine failure are very low, but bird ingestion is the main cause. Usually, bird ingestion results in visible smoke and flames from the engine exhausts. I can't see that in any video, but the videos are scarce and of poor quality.

 

Edited yesterday at 05:42 AM by onetrack

[BrendAn]

There is a clear video that shows the rat and you can hear it. There are no dead birds on the runway so the Indian officials have ruled out birds

 

[onetrack]

Do you have a link to that "clear video"?

 

I wouldn't be looking for dead birds on the runway, for evidence the engines ingested them. A few birds in a flying flock would do the damage and be chewed up, and the rest would fly away.

 

 

Edited yesterday at 05:52 AM by onetrack

[BrendAn]

https://youtu.be/z7EZkungFEE?si=ls3XqYeiPcq28pY0

[BrendAn]

2 minutes ago, onetrack said:

Do you have a link to that "clear video"?

 

I wouldn't be looking for dead birds on the runway, for evidence the engine ingested them. A few birds in a flock would do the damage and be chewed up, and the rest would fly away.

 

 

It takes a lot. Have a look at the roll Royce test videos on YouTube 

[onetrack]

That video and explanation from Capt Steeeve is very good, and it jells with what MenTour Pilot and his mate were discussing - that a brain fart in selecting flaps up instead of gear up is totally on the cards, and there would be no major warning against the error. Even the distinct shape and placement of the different levers still does little towards an inadvertent incorrect choice of levers.

 

The FO on the Yeti Air ATR 72 crash in Nepal selected the prop feather lever inadvertently, instead of flaps, when coming in to land - but on the ATR 72, these two levers are adjacent, so a higher chance of incorrect lever selection.

 

Edited yesterday at 06:23 AM by onetrack

[onetrack]

And now, Capt Steeve has changed his opinion, after seeing the clear video evidence of the RAT deployment.

 

 

[danny_galaga]

17 hours ago, Arron25 said:

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Definitely only used half..FR seems to have stopped when they lost power/electrics

It's kinda irrelevant how much runway the plane used since it clearly took off 

[Arron25]

19 hours ago, onetrack said:

The story about the aircraft taking off using only half the runway is a furphy, initiated by faulty tracking that only commenced once the aircraft was halfway down the runway. The runway is 3,500 metres long, and a Dreamliner needs 2538M to take off.

Maybe this points to an electrical hiccup earlier than takeoff.. causing the transponder and consequently tracking to glitch?

[BrendAn]

3 hours ago, Arron25 said:

Maybe this points to an electrical hiccup earlier than takeoff.. causing the transponder and consequently tracking to glitch?

there is a video of an earlier flight with a passenger saying the air conditioning was not working or the entertainment systems.  don't know if that would indicate other faults

[Red]

7 hours ago, Arron25 said:

Maybe this points to an electrical hiccup earlier than takeoff.. causing the transponder and consequently tracking to glitch?

Tracking whilst still on the ground is always sketchy for obvious reasons

[Red]

As they now have the FDR and CVR there should be rapid progress in the investigation.

[kgwilson]

Given both are in the tail and it was left intact sticking out of a building extraction of the data should not present a problem. Then again stranger things have happened before.

[facthunter]

They are designed to take a lot of punishment. The noises recorded by the CVR  often provide the Most accurate information of precise timing of engine power changes and things like the RAT operating. Nev

[Student Pilot]

There some information around on the net about earlier problems with quality control and workplace pressure. There was an exposé a few years ago with whistle blowers and the treatment they got from Boing. One of the complaints/problems was machining swath not cleaned before electrical harnesses and wiring were installed. There was a batch of aircraft directly affected, most of those went to Air India. One of the whistle blowers was found dead a few days into giving evidence into a senate inquiry I think it was. This is very serious, why have we not heard more of this?