Admin Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Another thread: http://www.recreationalflying.com/forum/training-students/64170-pax-question.html Got me thinking about my Pax Brief. I always say to my pax "If I should become incapacitated for any reason this is the altimeter, move the stick forward to go down and back to go up to keep the needle in a position where it isn't moving, this ball here also needs to stay in the middle, use the pedals to do that.....etc" It is the only time where the "navigate" part of Aviate, Navigate, Communicate tends to lose its importance other then stay away from clouds. I also go over with the pax how to use the radio. But, what got me thinking in the case of say the beginning of a heart attack (or something else before loss of consciousness), it is most probable that I would be applying force on the stick and/or pedals whilst in severe pain thus causing the aircraft into an attitude other then straight and level. How could you brief a pax on that without last seeing them running at lightening speed to their car for a quick getaway? :big_grin: It was easy when I had my CT as I just needed to say "See this shiny red handle, pull it with a lot of force and...etc" and I would explain the only situations you would pull the parachute and how to use the radio. The rest was explained when flying as an old habit I got into was always saying what I was doing to my instructor when I learnt to fly like..."look for traffic, turn left, little pedal, max 15deg turn, level out, keep climbing, check instruments, prepare for downwind turn etc etc" and this always puts the pax at ease knowing what was happening and they pick it all up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Qwerty Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I don't go anywhere near the "incapacitated" thing. a) its not going to happen, b) you cant teach anything worthwhile with less than a few hours practice c) it would scare the bejesus out of me if someone started with that stuff d) they usually cant remember to keep off the peddels afte 2 min so nothing else is going to stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkSarcasm Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 I think if I'd never flown before and my pilot suddenly started telling me what I could do if he died, I'd be sitting there thinking "It must be a realistic possibility if he's telling me, do I REALLY want to trust my life in his hands if his heart is dodgy?" I can see why you'd want to 'give them the best chance of surival' if something did happen, but I reckon once you start going into that they'd probably be too busy freaking internally about the chances of it happening to listen to what you're saying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XP503 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 There is no possible way you could impart enough wisdom in a passenger briefing to ensure your non-flying passenger could land the plane for you. I feel a brief like that would only heighten the passengers unease.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 I don't go anywhere near the "incapacitated" thing. a) its not going to happen, b) you cant teach anything worthwhile with less than a few hours practice c) it would scare the bejesus out of me if someone started with that stuff d) they usually cant remember to keep off the peddels afte 2 min so nothing else is going to stick. Im with qwerty, on this one.No point scaring the sh$% out of the passenger, if you do come incapacitated, they wont remember anything anyway.IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Agree. Sorry Ian, I have to throw my lot in with the "stay out of that territitory" incapacited thing. I am sure we have covered this one before. The essentials are how to get out, keep clear of the controls always. I confirm this just before the take-off roll by doing a "once around the world" with the stick and you will usually knock his/ her legs with it. A few things can be incorporated into YOUR check, ie the hatches, harness bit, incude the SEAT BELT FASTENED, DOOR SECURED. The briefing HAS to be minimalist. so you have an opportunity to emphasize the ESSENTIALS. There is no reason to not acquaint the passenger with numerous things, during the flight You can point out to the pax how well it glides with the engine idling when you are coming in for landing.( doesn't fall out of the sky like in the movies.) Most initial flyers hate being on the bottom side of a steep turn. They think they will fall out the door. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Yea, I wouldn't be briefing on what to do should I die. However, i think the partners of pilots thing is a good idea. If you fly with your wife, hubby, or whoever frequently, then an idea of what to do should things go pear shaped is a must i think. Even if its just straight and level, radio etc. Some schools run a course for partners, its just basically how to crash the thing gracefully ( i believe). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gomer Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 ...just basically how to crash the thing gracefully... Yeah. I think I've got the crashing gracefully bit just about sorted... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skybum Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 Would a simple comic style emergency sheet be enough to explain basic controls to enable a simple turn, climb and descent without getting into the realms of a spiral dive or stall/spin scenario. Show the two important indicators only. Airspeed and Altimeter and what will happen when you do something like push or pull on the stick or open or close the throttle. Most everyone understands how to turn an aeroplane, make a limit of how to do a gentle turn whilst maintaining altitude. If they can master that, then go to how to choose something flat and open looking and how to set up a descent and how to aim the aircraft by a sight picture. The last bit is just going to be the luck of the draw to survive a prang at highway speed in a lightly constructed vehicle. Haps better than the alternative of wings coming off in a spiral dive. Will have to experiment with my kids. EDIT- Just to add this link to the US AOPA Pinch Hitter online course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XP503 Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 There is no point! They are not going to be able to fly the plane, that only happens in movies. Most students can't grasp landing a plane after the first umpteen amount of circuits with an expert telling them what to do, how on earth is Mr Passenger supposed to get it right first time on their own. "Partners of Pilots" courses are a great idea and you should also do a self assessment to be certain you are healthy and not going to die mid-flight...... If you think you are at risk of collapsing dead at the controls then why on earth would you take anyone with you to your doom, let alone try and tell them how to fly you back to earth? If you think you are at risk you should only fly with another pilot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skybum Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 davidmason1...there is a point. nobody takes off thinking they are going to keel over. Guy I know bought a licence and ended up instructing. One day he forget to eat his weeties and the ol' sugar levels dropped and he passed out on a dual mission....luckily for his student the student was advanced and just flew back to base and to the end of the guys career...imagine if he forgot his weeties when he was flying a Gonad full of passengers? 0.55% of accidents involve pilot incapacitation. Cirrus believed that some of their sales can be attributed to the BRS alone. Any pilot would rather deadstick a landing than pull the red handle so why would a pilot worry about having a BRS...maybe it IS for passenger piece of mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XP503 Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 Skybum, your comment confuses me..... Have you read this thread from the start? ...So What you are trying to tell me is that every time you take a passenger flying you give them a "quick flying 101" and tell them that there is a possibility that you are going to die half way through this flight and "this is how you land the plane"... Are you pulling my leg or are you mad? There is no point in doing that, they are not going to be able to land the plane for you, unless they have had adequate training, all you are going to do by bombarding them with this is make them more nervous and question your ability to complete the flight safely. Again, you're better off minimizing the chances of you becoming incapacitated OR, if you think you are at risk, not taking passengers and instead take a safety pilot along for the ride. Your story about the instructor who "bought" his license simply proves my point, you should do a thorough self assessment before you take off, i.e "have I had my weeties"......."have I had enough water"........"how healthy is my heart".....Not doing this self-check is poor Airmanship. You say "imagine if he forgot his weeties when he was flying with a Gonad full of passengers" - Are you saying that if he had have given those passengers a briefing on what the instruments are and how to land the plane if he was to pass out, that they would have all landed safely.......GET REAL!!! student pilots do hours and hours of circuits and they still can't get it right! If I was one of those passengers I'd tell him to go eat his weeties, have a drink of water..... And then I still wouldn't fly with him! Whether your statistics are correct (can you tell me the source?) or not is irrelevant, I am not disputing that Pilot Incapacitation is not a serious issue or a factor in aircraft accidents, I am arguing that giving your passenger a XXXXy little briefing on how to fly an aeroplane because you think your going to die half way through is absolutely stupid. Tell me, were you able to fly an aircraft the first time you laid hands on the joystick? NO. If you think your passenger will be required to fly the plane at some point because you have not taken adequate measures to ensure you can perform your duties as Pilot In Command such as water, sustenance, rest and health or you're afraid it will happen at random, then send them to an RAAus Flying School and get them trained by an instructor because there is no point giving them a quick brief before take off, you will just sound crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Qwerty Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 Davidmason1, What are you getting at, stop dancing around the subject and just say what you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Qwerty Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 My brief??? It depend on who it is. Usually its Getin, sit down, belt up, hang on, shut up and dont touch those #@king pedals. One of my mates, I tell them that all the RED nobs in the a/c are connected to the ejector seat on their side. Other pilots, depending on the purpose of the flight and the actual pilot, I generally ask them to tell me if I do anything that makes them uncomfortable. Insructors, I ask them to critique my performance and then fly on my very best behaviour. My brother, well he got to within a poofteenth of getting his ticket a few years ago, so he doesn't get one. For novices, I ask them to stay off the pedals, and if I'm in my Lightwing I include the (heel) brakes too. I generally give a talored brief to suit the flight and the Pax. It varies. I read a story in one of the mags a few months ago about a Pax who had a panic attack and that could get awkward so I kep a bit of an eye out for any tell tale signs of impending tropo attacks too now. If I didn't fly with so many pilots, I'd take the right side pedals out. A Pax with a panic attack and his feet jammed on the pedals could get interesting just after touch down in either of my tail wheel a/c. Wot about you Cficare, wots your brief??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Qwerty Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 Oh and the doors the doors, They all slam the doors like the doors on a 10 year old Holden. The bloody doors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XP503 Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 Sorry I thought I was pretty clear in the point I was trying to make. I like the sound of your briefs they are pretty much the same as mine, tailoring the brief to the individual is a good way to go about it. None of this "teaching them how to fly it in case you die" stuff. See you all later I'm going flying.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poteroo Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Keep it short, make it relevant, and positive, to the aircraft and flight conditions expected - eg, if it's bumpy, explain that it's not dangerous, but you'll keep the speed lower to make it smoother. Take a positive approach to the brief - ie, tell them what they can touch and grab, rest their feet on etc - no negatives please. Finally, turn the volume down on the radios - enough so you can hear them, but not so much that the pax are disturbed by the chatter. Too much information and explanation only confuses the pax. The last thing thay need is detailed explanations about possible emergency scenarios - just say... ' if I need you to do anything during this flight I'll explain it too you when/if, it becomes necessary' happy days, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Hi there prune guys, try not to make it complicated, we're just chilled out here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Qwerty Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 I took a novice Pax out today, my brief is irrelavant, but she was telling me that she went for a fly with a bloke some time ago to do some aeros (basic, gentle stuff I assume). She told me that the engine stopped halfway through a loop and she was stixx scared that they were going to fall out of the sky. The pilot apparently told her "that's normal" and left it at that. After further enquiry, it turns out that she was refering to when he pulled the engine back to idle after going over the top. I explained it to her, but he should have done that, its his job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabiru Phil Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Yeah, Thought that I had it all covered until last week-end when the pax said after landing that she was worried somewhat when I cut the power on late down wind. I will now add this to my inflight commentary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octave Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Yep I have found some people seem to be concerned by throttling down on the base leg turn, I now sometime during the flight demonstrate a power off decent. This gets them used to the idea and it means they are less likely to distract me whilst landing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Hi qwerty, just read your previous thread about panick attacks. I read a story about a pilot who had to knock out his passssenger, because the passenger suddenly went into a panic attack(started hanging/pulling on to the controls), and he couldnt calm him, well he couldnt calm him down until he started punching him. Scary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 Pax management. At least you shouldn't have the problem of him being bigger than you, because then the aircraft would be overweight. PS where are these pervious posts? I didn't think they would be allowed. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 Hi facthunter, sorry for the pervious, it should have been previous.(and i didnt drink last night .) Your right about the weight issue as well. At 96/94 kilos, (not fat, just broad shoulded from working for a living.) It doesnt leave much room for fuel /luggage with a pax around the same weight as me. (qwerty's thread 17) cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 I reckon I have the shortest passenger briefing. Get out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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