flyerme Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 I said it in a previous post and Ill say it again.Our no 1 problem has still been avoided!! COMMUNICATION .........Is it so bad or embarrassing our "President" doesn't want to give us a detailed description on what the actual problem is/was? Aircraft reg?more detail please?I think people would like to know if the next type A/C they purchase is going to be difficult to reg? hey I don't know can only guess what the problem is and continue speculating on "WEB SITES" antill the TRUTH BE TOLD....................... 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Again, You contact any of the member representatives and the information varies from no response to ... its the offices fault to ... the information is on the website ... In other words the membership generally are being treated like mushrooms (kept in the dark and fed BS). Again the culture of contempt of those they represent is upheld. And when I raise an issue I am treated as a rumour monger and a trouble maker. Well at least one of our representatives is truthful with us but he will no doubt be treated with contempt by the other Board members for doing what he was elected to do ... communicate with the members. Officially we failed FOUR audits of our registration processes ... yes FOUR. That is official from CASA. Our paper work was NOT in order and John McKeown confirmed that with me in writing. We were given three chances to fix the problem and CASA finally walked in and took the process off us. I know there were several aircraft flying out there without the required 'special airworthiness' certificates and there were fatalities in some of those aircraft. But don't believe me, after all I am a rumour monger. There are real potential legal actions that we may be exposed to and that if taken could seriously impact on our financial assets because we have totally inadequate insurance cover and the reason for our totally inadequate insurance cover that has never been adequately explained to the members (and if you think the description finally given of our current legal matter is all we have to worry about as members ...think again) ... but don't believe me after all I am a rumour monger. If the elected representatives would come out and tell the members all the issues and the potential liabilities we would all get behind RA Aus and make sure we survived. But no ... this holier than thou attitude particularly by the executive will make sure we never know because it appears in their view they are above us simple plebs. Ask your self why the treasurer has breached constitutional rules and still failed to get the financial accounts to the membership and why the secretary has breached constitutional rules and still not supplied minutes from the AGM. In my view this is utter contempt for the rules of association and the membership in general and they should resign. If we think this current crisis is all we have to worry about think again and ask yourself what culture exists at the top of this organisation where the membership are lied to and the problems continue to develop. IMHO the members have to do something about this and appointing an administrator is the first thing that should happen to sort out our legal, management and administrative issues, immediately followed by a censure motion on the executive. Then we can do a constitutional review and reduce the inappropriate number of 'Board' members, set proper policy and processes and open the organisation up to be a professionally run association of members. This will send a clear message to CASA et al that we the members intend to run a professional organisation. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Thanks for the clarification David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 David, In those 11 paragraphs, you got it in one. And even as of last night, on the RAA website, the Membership are still being "MANAGED" by people who can't even manage to be prepared for an AGM or to subsequently generate a set of Minutes thereof. The entire episode is a disgrace .... and a crying shame. But bouquets to Board Member McKeown for fronting up here. Well done John. Regards Geoff 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 And David, with the first order of business to bring the CASA Audit shortfalls into compliance, and within that to make a decision about LSA. I raised a question about this a few days ago, but no one has said either "What?", or "you don't know what you're talking about" I'd really be interested to get some feedback on where LSA fits in or whether this was just slipped in behind members backs by a greedy few, and who was involved in it, and whether that includes any CASA people, etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 TP, the whole LSA thing was created by FAA so that is why they are also having trouble with it over there and as aviation is a world law, as in certification can be the same in many countries belonging to the ICAO (???), we in our wanting to belong adopted here as well...that's the start as far as I know, which probably isn't much in this area Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted November 14, 2012 Author Share Posted November 14, 2012 "In other words the membership generally are being treated like mushrooms (kept in the dark and fed BS)." Seems to be a growing trend with RAAus board and management Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 "wanting to belong adopted here as well" Who wanted to adopt? Five sellers and six buyers? ten thousand members? So there would have been a financial analysis based on Australia's very low volume in a complicated market with many suppliers ( a simple spreadsheet)? And then there would have been a formal decision, minuted and put to all members for approval to: (a) Absorb the extra cost of administration if it is small, and support the introduction into RAA? or: (b) Employ additional staff, increase RAA membership subscriptions from around $160.00 pa at the time to say $450.00 pa, and support introduction? or: © Reject introduction on the grounds of cost and let LSA interests finance their own body similar to SAAA? Since LSA happened, there will be minuted copies of the initial research, decisions proposed to the Members, results of Member votes, meetings of formal adoption? Those records are there aren't they? Surely a collection of individuals haven't left themselves open to paying to fix the present CASA issues personally? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMcK Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Hi All, As I said previously, "It is a very ill wind that blows no good" Although this matter has been very Traumatic, I can see many positives that can come out of this, if we seek them. Yes it has been a huge wake up call. Not a gentle shake, more a hammer to the head. But we deserved it. Make no mistake, the major blame falls on the Board itself. Myself and the other eleven Board members. (There is one vacancy in Vic) We were elected to manage the business (Association) on your behalf, and to have failed all these audits, and had all those groundings etc, means we have failed you. The positives are we have the potential to emerge much stronger, with cutting edge procedures and systems for our paperwork. The membership is now taking much more interest in how their Association is run, and ideally they will now have more contact with their local Rep. More contact with your Rep means more communication, both ways, and less rumours and more transparency. Hopefully more persons will nominate for Board positions, and most important, more Members will hopefully read the election statements of the candidates, make an informed decision, and actually vote. If you don't hold us accountable, we will not hold accountable those down the line. On the Technical side, we will gain a much clearer understanding of all our aircraft types and in particular LSA. We will come to understand the fine lines of compliance with these aircraft, and we should not make any more Registration mistakes. John McK 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnm Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 As we are not receiving specific RAA information (I fail to see why this (our) information) is confidential) ......................................... only TIME will tell Are there any members that are SP bookmakers ? (have to clear it with Ian before the betting ring commences) This would be fertile ground for encouraging and taking a punt ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerochute Kev Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Kev this is only a personal opinion but the information you received from the person members voted in the represent you, namely "the audit failure was in regard to registrations" may not qualify as useable information. Not sure about "useable" but certainly not useful!!! I have asked my Rep for more detail. Kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Can you clarify, does the opportunity still exist that any #24 RAA aircraft can loose its rego at any time and be relegated to #19 or grounded without notice due to this issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ave8rr Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Hi All,On the Technical side, we will gain a much clearer understanding of all our aircraft types and in particular LSA. We will come to understand the fine lines of compliance with these aircraft, and we should not make any more Registration mistakes. John McK John, From what I can see, LSA is a "special" beast. I have just been speaking with a friend of mine over in NZ and he has just had the FK9 registered with NZCAA in the LSA category. That aircraft has been flying as a class two microlight but after a fee ($2000.00) and alot of factory paperwork to NZCAA is now an LSA. Still being flown on a ultralight Certificate though. It appears that RAAus need to do alot more when registering LSA aircraft. It is not simple from what I can gather and if importers are wanting LSA registration then they should cover the costs. Perhaps LSA should be VH registered??? or just registered RAAus #24. What are the advantages of being registered LSA? We now have 600kgs MTOW anyway. I think there will be alot more discussion on this. Many thanks for keeping us informed on this forum. Cheers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 The idea behind LSA is that the manufacturer self certifies the plane instead of the government. From my understanding, Jabiru could release a "fixed" version of their engine under ATSM certification that would not affect their certified engines, but could only be used in LSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Mike 24 rego is required for training or hiring...that is the big issue for LSA......19 rego I dont think will ever be any issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zibi Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 New update on RAA website RA-Aus Aircraft Registration Update 15/11/2012 November 14, 2012 | opsassist I have just been informed that the restrictions for aircraft renewal registration has been lifted and RA-Aus may resume this process. There is still, however, a restriction on new aircraft registrations as RA-Aus have more work to do in order to provide assurances to CASA that we have systems in place to do this effectively. I will inform you via this means once the restriction in regards to new aircraft registrations has been lifted. In order to assist us with fine-tuning our systems and procedures in regards to aircraft registrations, RA-Aus have enlisted the assistance of a Technical Consultant, Mr. Neville Probert. For the time being Neville will be the final authority for aircraft registrations. Unfortunately, the Technical Consultant is away on business until Friday 23rd November 2012 so the registrations currently held by RA-Aus will not be authorised until that date, at the earliest. The staff will continue to prepare the paperwork for his return. Due to his future availability members may experience a delay before registration applications can be authorised. Additionally, there is already a backlog of renewal applications, which will exacerbate renewal delays. You are respectfully requested to return your aircraft renewal applications as soon as possible after you get the renewal notice, to ensure that your aircraft remains registered. You are also requested to take time completing the necessary paperwork, ensure that you enclose all the necessary documents and do a final check on everything prior to sending it to the office. CASA has a zero tolerance to file omissions, so we may have to ask you for additional information, such as weight and balance data or aircraft photographs. We will be unable to renew a registration if there are any deficiencies in the aircraft file. The initial directive from CASA was given as a result of RA-Aus not meeting all the requirements set by CASA at previous audits. It has been identified that the system currently used by RA-Aus may be overly complicated and not fully understood by all staff members. It is, therefore, imperative for us to simplify the process to ensure the mistakes currently being made are not made in the future. To that end, new systems and procedures are being worked upon to simplify the process and to ensure that RA-Aus meet all the requirements set out by CASA. Neville will be with us for some time to assist us and I thank him for agreeing to take on this task. I would like to thank the staff, Neville and Paul Middleton, the RA-Aus Secretary, for the tremendous effort so far in resolving this situation and I know that they will continue working late each day until this issue is completely resolved. RA-Aus apologizes for the inconvenience this has caused and we would, once again, like to assure our members that we continue to do all we can to resolve the situation as soon as possible. Steve Runciman President RA-Aus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Hi All,As I said previously, "It is a very ill wind that blows no good" Although this matter has been very Traumatic, I can see many positives that can come out of this, if we seek them. Yes it has been a huge wake up call. Not a gentle shake, more a hammer to the head. But we deserved it. Make no mistake, the major blame falls on the Board itself. Myself and the other eleven Board members. (There is one vacancy in Vic) We were elected to manage the business (Association) on your behalf, and to have failed all these audits, and had all those groundings etc, means we have failed you. The positives are we have the potential to emerge much stronger, with cutting edge procedures and systems for our paperwork. The membership is now taking much more interest in how their Association is run, and ideally they will now have more contact with their local Rep. More contact with your Rep means more communication, both ways, and less rumours and more transparency. Hopefully more persons will nominate for Board positions, and most important, more Members will hopefully read the election statements of the candidates, make an informed decision, and actually vote. If you don't hold us accountable, we will not hold accountable those down the line. On the Technical side, we will gain a much clearer understanding of all our aircraft types and in particular LSA. We will come to understand the fine lines of compliance with these aircraft, and we should not make any more Registration mistakes. John McK John, I love your optimism (and your communication), but I have to say to you that what you describe cannot be achieved with the same 3 on the Executive and the same so-called CEO. The attitude of those people is indemic and the competence of the head of the RAA Office has been proven by these events. There MUST be no more group hugs and love-ins at the top, there MUST be consequences for these persistant c*ck-ups (RAA didn't merely "trip up" on an audit, these dills failed 4 of them after being warned, & probably also coached and helped who knows how many times by the auditors after each failure (as they almost always do)) and those who were in charge were responsible .... and deserve to be held responsible. And add to that the issue re the AGM Minutes and the so-called Treasurer's Report & audited accounts. The fact that they have not already resigned indicates where they stand on personal honour ..... and also shows contempt for the Membership. Regards Geoff 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 New update on RAA website "Neville will be with us for some time to assist us and I thank him for agreeing to take on this task. I would like to thank the staff, Neville and Paul Middleton, the RA-Aus Secretary, for the tremendous effort so far in resolving this situation and I know that they will continue working late each day until this issue is completely resolved." Well done, facthunter! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ave8rr Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Mike24 rego is required for training or hiring...that is the big issue for LSA......19 rego I dont think will ever be any issue Thanks Mark, I realise that #24 are required for training / hiring. As I understand it not ALL factory built are sold LSA so some factory built A/C are coming in and being registered 24 (factory built Savannah for e.g.) I dont believe they (Sanannahs) are LSA. Perhaps there needs to be yet another RAAus category for LSA Certified aircraft. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chird65 Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 New update on RAA website So is Neville paid by CASA as a Standards Branch Head as he was in 2004, or by RA-Aus as a consultant. I would have thought someone of his past work history would be there to advise of an appropriate system and process so that the issues do not happen again and will continue to meet CASA requirements. The News seem to say that he will be a single sign off for some future time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Neville will be with us for some time to assist us and I thank him for agreeing to take on this task.I would like to thank the staff, Neville and Paul Middleton, the RA-Aus Secretary, for the tremendous effort so far in resolving this situation and I know that they will continue working late each day until this issue is completely resolved. Well done, facthunter! Don't be naughty Eighty 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 LSA is organised into 2 groups ELSA and SLSA. Experimental and Special. Special is the equivalent of #24 and experimental is #19. " CASA has a zero tolerance to file omissions, so we may have to ask you for additional information, such as weight and balance data or aircraft photographs. We will be unable to renew a registration if there are any deficiencies in the aircraft file. " Its prudent for all aircraft owners to contact the RAA at the earliest opportunity to find out what paper work is missing from your registration documentation or you might loose your registration. Good luck selling your plane if you cannot reregister it due to the RAA loosing your paperwork... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Mike Someone told me and I cant remember who that if you get a factory built sav it must be rego at 24 and can not be rego'd as a 19....not sure if it is true of not. I was under the impression pretty much all factory built and flown come under the LSA umbrella even though the mtow is not 600 kg they can be less but still comply to the LSA reglations. So who knows....wouldnt it be nice is someone who "knows" all the correct information would put it down in simple plain english about what is and what isn't....then again the way things are going here it seems no one actually knows with all this paperwork kafufal Mark 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 When mine was registered I supplied every piece of paperwork required on their list including around 6 pics inc the engine installation. All weight and balance figures and diagrams....hopefully that list of info required is the required list....mine has full rego now so I hope it stays that way 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 To qualify as E-LSA the plane must be 51% made by the builder and 49% by the factory. Not sure if that is accepted in the RAA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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