Litespeed Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Hey for my money- If Bex can do a 10 grand kit- good on him. I could then add some cheap instruments, grab a BMW motor for 2 grand add redrive and bingo I would have a sub 20 grand aircraft. Not everyone wants or demands a new rotax up front or Jabiru. Damn give they guy some credit for what his is doing. Not everyone has $100k to splash around nor should they. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted August 18, 2016 Author Share Posted August 18, 2016 And here was me thinking, we were going to get something far superior "Superior" means different things to different people. Some people might think that a quality kit that they can afford and put together in a short time with confidence themselves at home with basic tools, and that they can also maintain and repair themselves later, might be termed "superior". It's easy to talk about the latest superior aircraft being the fastest, highest, slowest, shortest stol (whatever), but in my book it ain't "superior" when you can't afford own it. Anybody can build another $100,000 (whatever) light aircraft, and I mean "another" because there's a darn lot of them out there, big deal. Bottom line is - is a $10K kitplane offer, really going to make a huge difference, when owner-builders are often looking at more than that, for instruments/avionics, and around $25-30K for a motor? What engine and avionics you put in your plane is your choice, and engines, new, start at around $8,000 not $25K. Then there's used engines. People don't go and build a $40K - $60K kit then put a used $3K Subaru EA81 or a new $8K Great Plains VW in it, they might for a $10K kit though - you see the difference. It's relative economics. I'm just pointing out, that price alone, is not the final determining factor in most peoples purchase decisions. Correct, because it's the preliminary factor that's already been decided. The largest number consider performance, looks, resale, comfort and user-friendliness, as well as the price. That's what I'm striving for, who said anything different. I still don't understand your purpose here, you're being constantly disparaging towards something that doesn't even exist yet. Exactly what have you got against someone totally ignoring the entire aircraft industry and trying to bring a product in at a fraction of the price for a competent craft, which is my goal? 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted August 18, 2016 Author Share Posted August 18, 2016 I could then add some cheap instruments, grab a BMW motor for 2 grand add redrive and bingo I would have a sub 20 grand aircraft. Eggzackerli, And I'll post the comment again, it's worth the standalone comment .. People don't go and build a $40K - $60K kit then put a used $3K Subaru EA81 or a new $8K Great Plains VW in it. They might for a $10K kit though - you see the difference. It's relative economics. 2 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 I'm not being disparaging. You're being overly sensitive. I previously said I'm not dissing what you're doing, that I admire what you're doing. All I wanted to know was the reasoning behind what you're doing, and you have now explained it. Perhaps I missed something earlier on in the thread, that I should have read. I'm just trying to raise a few points of discussion and reasoning. If that goes against the aim of your thread, I'll drop it. Thanks for the enlightenment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilot Pete Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Maybe you should read the entire thread from the start to get in context what Bex is trying to achieve here. Not trying to be nasty but you need to get the full story . You might not be also aware of the fact that Bex has also been designing and building an engine that would be a competitive choice against the mainstream engines on offer today . You can read that thread in the engine and props section titled " another oz engine on the way. Wether Bex is doing all this just to line his pockets or just to give mainstream companies s run for their money, we, in the aviation sector who don't have lots of dollars to spend could still end up with a plane and engine package that equals its high end rivals in looks, performance , and quality. I for one don't question Bex on why he's doing it. That's his business. I'm just glad that someone is doing it. 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted August 18, 2016 Author Share Posted August 18, 2016 I'm just trying to raise a few points of discussion and reasoning. I believe I have proven that anyone is free to comment or ask as they wish to on this subject and that I will respond also, as I have to each of your comments, I do find your angle baffling though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted August 18, 2016 Author Share Posted August 18, 2016 Wether Bex is doing all this just to line his pockets Ha! No mate, I wish, but far from it, giving a lot of people money along the way though, this is all out of my own pocket currently. It's a very long story and not for public consumption sorry, but do know it has to go all the way to the end so you guys win if it all goes to plan, which it has to. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunder Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 To change topic slightly, I would be looking for a complete kit or have readily available local parts. Can't think of anything worse than gaining momentum on a build then having to wait 3 weeks for a bolt or washer from the states or where ever....Or requiring custom parts to be made. This is something that has put me off kits in the past. I think the Savannah kit is quite complete and perhaps part of it's success. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 onetrack said:I'm just pointing out, that price alone, is not the final determining factor in most peoples purchase decisions. bexrbetter said: Correct, because it's the preliminary factor that's already been decided. Sorry, I beg to disagree. Many people decide on the features they'd like in an item they desire to purchase, and then see if they can afford it. As someone who was self-employed in my own business for around 50 years, I bought a vast amount of mechanised equipment of all types, and spent a lot of money doing so. I know that, often, the price of an item I wanted or needed, was a lot more than I wanted or budgeted to pay - but I had to examine the features that made it that price, and decide whether to bite the bullet and pay for it. A cheap price is certainly an initially attractive thing - but a low price doesn't always swing the sale. A lot of people prefer to pay good money for an item that they are convinced has better features, longer life, is more user-friendly, is safer, and has better resale. Sales and marketing techniques are as much a feature of a products success, as the design or price of the product. Despite Beemers and Mercs being extremely high-priced, they still manage to sell a lot, as compared to Hyundais. I do recall a car salesman telling me once, that there were psychological numbers that you had to talk people over - such as a $10,000 limit when selling used cars. People would get $10,000 fixed in their minds as the maximum they wanted to pay. It was a real sales barrier to have good car priced at $11,000, and then try to sell it. He reckoned people would say they couldn't possibly afford it, it was way over their budget limit - even though the vehicle was a better buy, than most of the clunkers priced at $9,999. It was his job to talk people around to seeing the benefits of spending the little extra to get the better vehicle. I understand you're intending to aim squarely at the "most affordable" kitplane - but never forget that marketing and sales techniques, as well as attractive design features, are as much a part of the success story, as a low purchase price. A lot of potential buyers are wary when presented with a low purchase price, wanting to know exactly where or how the build cost was cut so substantially, and what possibly suffered as a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 Large numbers of incomplete kits and semi-airworthy aircraft floating around on the second hand market, its been affecting the kit manufacturers for a while now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishla Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 My biggest problem is large lump sum outlays for me. The second biggest is the total cost. I'm hoping the kit will come in stages you could afford without too much of a cost penalty (realising that shipping is the killer). 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunder Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 It could actually be cheaper paying interest on a loan to purchase a complete kit over buying sub assemblies. Buying sub assemblies and shipping (as you say) could double the cost in the end. Many kit mfgs offer a discount for a full kit. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 The two Chinese lighties displayed at Oshkosh 2014 were the worst planes I have ever seen. If Bex has his eye on the Chinese market then the XPB will be a big step forward for buyers. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted August 19, 2016 Author Share Posted August 19, 2016 The two Chinese lighties displayed at Oshkosh 2014 were the worst planes I have ever seen. "Made in China" is certainly something I am up against. I simply have to be exceptionally careful and nothing can be allowed to slip through - the cries of "See, I warned you" will be instantaneous otherwise. A cheap price is certainly an initially attractive thing - but a low price doesn't always swing the sale. You're still not getting it, I am not low price, I am in a whole other dimension, an entire different demographic, and hopefully attract many new demographics who considered they couldn't afford such a class of craft previously. In fact to that demographic, '$20K' in some cases is harder for them to afford than it is for some demographics who's budget might be $60K. I can't help you any further with this specific line of conversation sorry. 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted August 19, 2016 Author Share Posted August 19, 2016 To change topic slightly, I would be looking for a complete kit or have readily available local parts.Can't think of anything worse than gaining momentum on a build then having to wait 3 weeks for a bolt or washer from the states or where ever....Or requiring custom parts to be made. This is something that has put me off kits in the past. I think the Savannah kit is quite complete and perhaps part of it's success. Part of the research and sourcing has been to establish common "off the shelf" materials and or simplicity of design with ease of replication for the owner. Having been at the end of an incomplete aircraft kit personally, not to mention the amount of times unassembled furniture, toys, etc has arrived with wrong bolts or missing parts, this is an area intended to have a lot of effort put into - including all tools and spares kit following years of motorcycle manufacturer's established practices. I promised myself early on that I would supply every tool required to build the plane with every kit, including workbench - which is why I don't get any 5 axis milling done! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
microman Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 Bex - I understand there are now Chinese-made engines available - one being the P700/740 range of 2-strokes - 50 to 70 hp I believe - do you know anything about these engines - are they for real? The P700 is being advertised on Alibaba for US$3250 (although the freight cost is pretty steep) - seems a bargain? Been following your build with interest - keep up the good work! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 The Savannah kit has been very successful and your right because it is pretty much a complete kit except the engine the paint and the radio. Everything is supplied even the air riveter but no other special tools like rivet crimpers but they are nominal in cost. Even the wiring is supplied. Not sure on the current kit price but its around 36K I think. I am very happy with mine. At the time some almost 5 years ago my sav ready to fly at first take off cost me 56K inc the 912ULS and the prop and the larger wheels. That is dirt cheap compared to now. So even if you could get a kit for 20K and had to add the wiring and paint etc like the sav that is ourstanding. I am currently looking at the Rans Raven S20. By the time I buy the kit and this is no motor/prop or avionics or paint or battery etc it will cost me 50K to get it here. Add the rest with a new motor etc and you are up for around 80K plus. If you can get a new kit in the air for 30K or so that is damn cheap in my books. This will also drive a lot more people to take up flying. A mate bought a jet ski recently it uses 60 litres of petrol an hour for gods sake and cost him 27K.....I know what I would rather spend that sort of money on 1 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted August 19, 2016 Author Share Posted August 19, 2016 This will also drive a lot more people to take up flying. Ahh, that right there, you get it. I also believe it's good for the industry long term, people can get into the sport and later move onto more "desirable" craft after getting a taste for it that they may not have wanted to afford initially. Bex - I understand there are now Chinese-made engines available - one being the P700/740 range of 2-strokes - 50 to 70 hp I believe - do you know anything about these engines - are they for real? Not the inline twin, but they look like the Indonesian or Malaysian Kawasaki based twin. Have had email converse with that Co, will look in a moment. I've seen the flat twin before, Hong Kong engine Co that is predominantly for RC models - the biggest in their line up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted August 19, 2016 Author Share Posted August 19, 2016 Dear (Bex), glad to have your interest in our HS2E81 jet ski engine in China HS2E81 jet ski engine....$780/UNIT MOQ:1 SET Package: Wooden case Stock : Available Delivery ;Air freight 3-5 days max Model: HS2E81 Engine type: 2 stroke, 2 cylinder, water cooled Stroke*Bore: 68*81mm Exhaust: 701CC Power: 95 HP/6500rpm Start system: Electricity starter Net Weight: 50 kg If you consider our offer workable you can confirm your order with us > regards > > Dave Abhilash > > SC RATDAWAN NGAMSRI > > 436 Huay Kaew Road, 15th Floor > 6 Soi Padung mauitau, > Muang Mae Hong Son > 58000, Thailand > Tel+66917532166 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
microman Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 Thanks for that - googled the company but nothing came up - how is it a Thai company but the engine is made in China? Any idea of the name of the chinese manufacturer? The price seems ridiculously low! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litespeed Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 Wow- That is incredibly cheap for 95hp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted August 19, 2016 Author Share Posted August 19, 2016 Thanks for that - googled the company but nothing came up - how is it a Thai company but the engine is made in China? Any idea of the name of the chinese manufacturer? The price seems ridiculously low! Yeah, different countries get different results through Google, and of course your general search habits are taken into consideration. - as I'm sure I can imagine the results for you when you type in "Twins" to Google .. Jet Ski Engine of 16449666 jet ski engine, jet ski engine Manufacturers and Suppliers at EveryChina.com 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted August 19, 2016 Author Share Posted August 19, 2016 Wow-That is incredibly cheap for 95hp Remember that's USD and you might have to buy a min quantity each time. Take into account there would be no warranty, spares problem and zero back up also. Take into account that Thailand Co might be a scammer as well, that just hit me, I will try to contact the Chinese manufacturer direct and let you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted August 23, 2016 Author Share Posted August 23, 2016 Managed to get some taxiing tests in today ... 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_d Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 First time I've seen a diff on a plane! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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