Avenger Ditching

[Phil Perry]

Grumman Avenger, they'd just spent 18 years restoring it, not too much damage though.

 

 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Phil Perry

[red750]

Beat you by an hour Phil. See other thread.

[Phil Perry]

2 hours ago, red750 said:

Beat you by an hour Phil. See other thread.

OOPS. . .Sorry Old Bean.

[Old Koreelah]

It occurs to me that one of the design features that might have been built into this naval aircraft is the ability to safely ditch in rough, deep water.

[facthunter]

 Maybe it would help if it was the case  but I've never heard mention of any feature particularly. Low wing and retracts are the optimum. Even seaplanes can't handle Rough water. You have to make them fly real slow to have a hope. Nev

[Old Koreelah]

8 minutes ago, facthunter said:

 ... Even seaplanes can't handle Rough water. You have to make them fly real slow to have a hope. 

In rough water the traditional seaplane design, with floats far below the CoG, might be almost as prone to tipping over as fixed wheels.

[facthunter]

They certainly are if you leave the wheels down. Many have them.. Nev

[kgwilson]

Check out Dan Gryders "Probable Cause" account of this failure. It is raw and tells it as he sees it and I reckon he is right on the money.

 

 

[Thruster88]

What the TBM pilot did was about a thousand times worse than what Martha Lunken did in her 180 so I guess his license will be pulled forever.  

[Blueadventures]

If the report content is right, could say he / they murdered the Avenger. Like they drilled most of the holes in the Swiss cheese. IMHO.

[onetrack]

Wow, that's the greatest savaging I've ever seen any respected aviator give to any aviation organisation - but they sure look like a bunch of cowboys, and I can understand why Dan is properly fired up.

He forgot to mention that IF three swimmers had been killed, the lawyers would then carve up the VAC, its directors, and anyone who made a decision directly responsible for the (hypothetical) deaths.

That would simply mean the VAC would cease to exist, and the warbirds would end up sold at auction, to extract the damages payouts.

[facthunter]

Why did they think they need not bother going to the Pilot's briefing? .  BAD sign.. Perhaps there's a "WE're above all that", attitude. I've seen some flying performances in this warbird stuff that wouldn't get even close to any normal line check standard. in similar aircraft. These are (irreplaceable almost) things. IF they are flying they must be flown in such a way they they are not  written off because of avoidable errors and corner cutting. While they are OWNED by people or organisations there's the concept of being part of a Nations Heritage. An operating example is far  far more than a static exhibit or taxyiing only example. Nev

[danny_galaga]

All I see is a text book ditching and some armchair experts with hours or even days to think of how to rubbish him. Was anyone hurt?

 

Reminds me of the movie Sully where the FAA spent a hell of a lot of energy trying to show what he did was wrong...

Edited May 4, 2021 by danny_galaga

[Old Koreelah]

Danny that’s what I thought, until the extent of their negligence was pointed out.

Seems the whole incident could have been easily avoided if they’d just done what sensible pilots normally do.

 

[facthunter]

IF you weren't aware of the factors involved you could "see" it as a successful ditching but the errors did contribute/ cause  the need to ditch. Rules were ignored repairs were non professional.  the engine ran out of oil. When it was blowing smoke it should have immediately returned to land. Plenty to not be impressed by . It's a good thing the facts are out and should help prevent  repetition of dangerous disregard of RULES made for ALL who wish to participate in such demonstrations to obey  or there won't be any.  Nev

[onetrack]

Danny, I think you've missed the message from Dan Gryder that the maintenance and operational culture in the Warbirds operation is substandard, and too casual and amateurish - and this will only lead to a disaster whereby more rare warbirds are lost forever, and possibly more innocent fatalities will result.

 

No doubt, what is concerning Dan is the same gung-ho, "she'll be right", culture that includes unacceptable maintenance "shortcuts", was involved in the 2019 crash of the Collings Foundation B-17 - where 6 innocent pax were killed.

Just the loss of a rare flying B-17 is bad enough - but the loss of innocent members of the public who put their trust in people doing maintenance to proper standards - and who were misled - is the worst feature of the B-17 crash.

The Collings Foundation has now been put under the microscope, and found to be seriously deficient in many of these same areas, as the Avenger owners. The maintenance procedures at Collings were substandard, to say the least.

What Dan is pointing out, is that the number of flying Warbirds is low, they are national heritage items, they are now getting very old, and too many are crashing due to deficient cultures and sub-standard maintenance and repair.

If this trend continues, it means more warbirds will be lost, and more innocents will be killed. It's a not a trend anyone wants to see continued.

It requires a dedicated and professional culture that recognises no shortcuts can be taken, the same as operating RPT airline services. The ramifications are, that all WW2 warbird flying will be banned, if the downward trend continues.

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 27/04/2021 at 3:41 PM, kgwilson said:

Check out Dan Gryders "Probable Cause" account of this failure. It is raw and tells it as he sees it and I reckon he is right on the money.

 

 

I had no idea they were such idiots. 

[Old Koreelah]

Even wor

1 hour ago, onetrack said:

... the maintenance and operational culture in the Warbirds operation is substandard, and too casual and amateurish - and this will only lead to a disaster whereby more rare warbirds are lost forever, and possibly more innocent fatalities will result...

Perhaps some current maintenance personnel have the attitude they can cut corners as was common in wartime to keep them operational.

Most of these aging warplanes were designed to last only a few months; they were quickly assembled, often by poorly-trained workers, so it’s a tribute to the restorers that they are still flyable 80 years later.

 

We are lucky to be able to see, hear and even perhaps fly in them, so today’s maintainers need to treat them like the delicate historic treasures they are.

[danny_galaga]

4 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

Danny that’s what I thought, until the extent of their negligence was pointed out.

Seems the whole incident could have been easily avoided if they’d just done what sensible pilots normally do.

 

I must admit i only watched the first seven minutes, which had nothing to do with the Avenger. I will watch the rest later and try and find the bit that's relevant to it

[danny_galaga]

8 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

Danny that’s what I thought, until the extent of their negligence was pointed out.

Seems the whole incident could have been easily avoided if they’d just done what sensible pilots normally do.

 

I must admit i only watched the first seven minutes, which had nothing to do with the Avenger.

[danny_galaga]

Finally watched the rest. Ok, that does seem really negligent! Anyone who hasn't watched the video yet, just start after the 9 minute mark. This dude has a total hard-on for someone who isn't even involved anymore so you can skip all that...

[Thruster88]

9 hours ago, danny_galaga said:

Finally watched the rest. Ok, that does seem really negligent! Anyone who hasn't watched the video yet, just start after the 9 minute mark. This dude has a total hard-on for someone who isn't even involved anymore so you can skip all that...

In the first part Dan was showing how the culture can be in these organisations. Pilots get jobs that they wouldn't be able to hold in a charter or airline environment.  

[danny_galaga]

The pilot of the Avenger wasn't mentioned in the first 9 minutes I don't think. It was all about a C47 and the previous benefactor who kept crashing it 

[facthunter]

I get depressed watching some of the antics of some Wartime plane flyers. They alternate between making it out to be either dead easy or something only air gods & superheroes can do, even with ALL engines running. I suspect in some areas it may have become a bull$#!t scene. Nev

[F10]

Yeah, Gryder did show up some issues, the B17 crash was a big question mark, it should have easily been able to fly with one engine out....cannot believe this Avenger pilot flew on to do a display, with smoke pouring out 🤡....a fairly common failure on radials is the supercharger impeller (a centrifugal compressor) bearing, which fails because it spins at very high rpm, so is pretty critical.  When it fails the seal goes, so crankcase oil gets blasted by the supercharger into the induction system, causing lots of white exhaust smoke, often followed shortly by a big power loss.  This outfit sounds dodge.  Military air shows I went too, if you missed the pilot briefing, you don’t fly, period. The warbird scene has some good people, clearly, but unfortunately, often it’s the size of your wallet that counts more than your professionalism of flight discipline. Kermit Weeks is pretty professional, but another ace up his sleeve is, he’s also a pretty good pilot. As for Lunken....well, she was once part of some Florida FAA flying standards and check unit....go figure!