D-Motor

[Oscar]

I actually went for the Rotax in the end. The price you quote doesn't include several items.I believe from memory as I can't be bothered digging out the paperwork but the difference between a new

Jab 80hp $10500.00

 

Camit 80 hp $11500.00

 

D-Motor 92hp $25000.00

 

Rotax ULS 100hp $33000.00

 

Weight comparisons to the 80hp Jab motor that was in it

 

These were calculated figures

 

Jab no change

 

Camit plus 1 kg

 

D Motor plus 3kgs

 

Rotax plus 12 kgs (Actual weight difference after doing the job and weighing the plane before and after, was plus 10.5 kgs.)

Out of interest: do those costs include any engine mount alterations, cowl mods, control run ( throttle, carby heat) mods?

 

Did the weight calculation include any additional ballast aft for the greater weight of the Rotax to keep the aircraft within its allowable W&B limits, or was that not necessary?

 

 

[Super Cub]

="Geoff13, post: 621203, member: 11655"]I actually went for the Rotax in the end. The price you quote doesn't include several items.I believe from memory as I can't be bothered digging out the paperwork but the difference between a new

Jab 80hp $10500.00

 

Camit 80 hp $11500.00

 

D-Motor 92hp $25000.00

 

Rotax ULS 100hp $33000.00

 

Weight comparisons to the 80hp Jab motor that was in it

 

These were calculated figures

 

Jab no change

 

Camit plus 1 kg

 

D Motor plus 3kgs

 

Rotax plus 12 kgs (Actual weight difference after doing the job and weighing the plane before and after, was plus 10.5 kgs.)

I am / was considering buying a used aircraft and replacing the engine with a 912ULS, but at $31,000 or ($33,000), plus any extras (eg: $1500 for engine mount, etc), I don't think I can justify it.

 

You would never get your money back later, when time to sell, and it would cost more than many other used LSA out there.

 

If it was $11,000, I would have done it already.

 

Hence the interest in D-Motors, or even the new design Jabiru engines. But we will have to wait a lot longer to see how they both pan out.

 

Certainly if a reliable $11,000 alternative was to become available, perhaps then, Rotax's only customer would be the US Military.

 

You can buy a pretty decent new car with a damn good reliable 180hp (ish) engine for $33,000.

 

It just doesn't really add up. (Yes, I know, car engine vs aircraft engine).

 

 

[adrian222]

I will be going down the viking honda 130 route I cannot see the money in a rotax.

 

Viking Aircraft Engines HF-110

 

 

[Super Cub]

I will be going down the viking honda 130 route I cannot see the money in a rotax. Viking Aircraft Engines HF-110

Yes, I've been keeping an eye on those engines too.

 

He made the Subaru aero engines before his company went bankrupt in the big depression (2008-2009). Then started Viking.

 

One thing I did like about the D-Motor was higher capacity engine, working less,.... and direct drive.

 

Closer the Lycomings I like.

 

 

[Brett]

I priced a 912 recently at

 

ENGINE ROTAX 912 UL S 2 $22,490.00

 

add say $4K at worst for accessories doesn't equal $31k or am I missing something?

 

 

[Super Cub]

I priced a 912 recently at ENGINE ROTAX 912 UL S 2 $22,490.00

 

add say $4K at worst for accessories doesn't equal $31k or am I missing something?

Yes, strangely the $22500 engine does not include many items.

 

Radiators - oil and water, exhaust, engine mount, tanks, tubes, air box, filters. Not sure how you get on with warranty if you don't use those extras, making your own for example.

 

Those extras are $6500.

 

Then strangely, after asking for prices in Australia, GST is NOT included in the prices.

 

Maybe I don't have to pay it for some reason.

 

Quick tally = $31975. Maybe other parts needed, freight.

 

Installation cost on top of that. Then if you require new cowls etc. Maybe looking at $35,000+ to re engine an aircraft.?

 

Maybe someone on here has done it. Id like to know your final cost.

 

 

[Brett]

Either way...... once getting into these numbers for an engine it sure adds up to an expensive hobby for the homebuilder.

 

 

[facthunter]

As I've said many times, a weight increase will make more engine options available and allow a cheaper build structure wise. Raises the question of why the "Management" want Controlled airspace done BEFORE weight increase. I can't see any connection from a logic point of view. I'm ready to be enlightened. Nev

 

 

[Oscar]

Yes, strangely the $22500 engine does not include many items.Radiators - oil and water, exhaust, engine mount, tanks, tubes, air box, filters. Not sure how you get on with warranty if you don't use those extras, making your own for example.

Those extras are $6500.

 

Then strangely, after asking for prices in Australia, GST is NOT included in the prices.

 

Maybe I don't have to pay it for some reason.

 

Quick tally = $31975. Maybe other parts needed, freight.

 

Installation cost on top of that. Then if you require new cowls etc. Maybe looking at $35,000+ to re engine an aircraft.?

 

Maybe someone on here has done it. Id like to know your final cost.

A guy in N.Z. swapped a rotax 912 (second-hand purchase) into a Jab. some years ago. There is a thread on that somewhere on Rec. Flying. He came up with a total realistic cost of somewhere around $40k for the entire exercise, which included (AFAIK) the engineering costs for the necessary calculations, associated paperwork, test flying, updating the POH etc. While he was happy with the resultant aircraft, he concluded that the exercise wasn't worth the money.

 

 

[facthunter]

And it usually requires weight down the tail to be added. That's not a good idea generally for spin recovery. (mass at the extremes encourages a flat spin) It may still recover but it won't be an improvement. When Jabiru assessed the situation when the original motor (Italian?) went out of production and the weight of alternative engines was a consideration related to making their own motor. Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

Those figures make interesting reading. On a dollar per hp rate the Jab is 40% of rotax. The Camit is 46%, the D motor is 83%.

 

Given that the safety aspect is probably what everyone is worried about and that Camit and D motor really don't have enough engines working to have reliable records, the high cost of Rotax doesn't relate to a corresponding better safety record.

 

 

[Geoff13]

Out of interest: do those costs include any engine mount alterations, cowl mods, control run ( throttle, carby heat) mods?Did the weight calculation include any additional ballast aft for the greater weight of the Rotax to keep the aircraft within its allowable W&B limits, or was that not necessary?

Oscar, My plane came with a factory kit to convert from Jabiru Motor to Rotax Motor so no that cost was not included.

 

The weight calculations were a pure weight comparison and I did not know how the W & B would go until after it was completed.

 

I must admit though that using a factory kit to convert and the factory assembly instructions I was fairly confident that it would come in ok.

 

As it turns out no other mods were needed as it came in within the allowable W&B. I will admit that it is noticeably nose heavier than when it had the Jabiru motor but not to the point of being difficult to fly.

 

The costs above did not include cowl mods. (That is a whole new story).

 

 

[Geoff13]

For those interested this thread covers the journey of replacing my Jab 2200 with a second hand 912ULS.

 

It covers the thought process behind most of my decisions as well.

 

I am not a Journalist but it might give you some idea. There are some very good second hand 912's out there for those who care to look.

 

X-Air Hanuman

 

 

[Oscar]

Oscar, My plane came with a factory kit to convert from Jabiru Motor to Rotax Motor so no that cost was not included.The weight calculations were a pure weight comparison and I did not know how the W & B would go until after it was completed.

I must admit though that using a factory kit to convert and the factory assembly instructions I was fairly confident that it would come in ok.

 

As it turns out no other mods were needed as it came in within the allowable W&B. I will admit that it is noticeably nose heavier than when it had the Jabiru motor but not to the point of being difficult to fly.

 

The costs above did not include cowl mods. (That is a whole new story).

Geoff: Having a factory kit for the conversion would be a HUGE advantage in cost, I'd bet enough to make it worthwhile.

 

Just the mount alone: perhaps people do not realise, but you can't just build something that hangs a new engine in the right place. A factory kit will have taken into account not just the location, but the forces involved: the engine + prop. torque being transferred back to the firewall mount locations, the centrifugal forces of the prop. etc. Normally, if you do an engine swap, it needs quite a bit of engineer's input (and cost) to calculate whether that can be safely taken out by the mount and the airframe behind it.

 

Then, there is the question of performance of the installation. A factory kit should have tested the flight performance to ensure it does not impose out-of-limits conditions on the engine (e.g. cooling, in particular). For a non-factory installation, those conditions need to be established by a qualified Test Pilot using calibrated equipment (unless you are going for Experimental category approval).

 

The Hunaman seems like a superb choice for such an engine swap. BUT: those with aircraft that do NOT have those advantages, should be careful in assuming that they will get away with the same sort of cost for the job.

 

 

[ianboag]

A guy in N.Z. swapped a rotax 912 (second-hand purchase) into a Jab. some years ago. There is a thread on that somewhere on Rec. Flying. He came up with a total realistic cost of somewhere around $40k for the entire exercise, which included (AFAIK) the engineering costs for the necessary calculations, associated paperwork, test flying, updating the POH etc. While he was happy with the resultant aircraft, he concluded that the exercise wasn't worth the money.

That was me. W & B was sorted by moving the battery to the back of the luggage area.

 

 

[AZDave]

The near total lack of marketing by D motors is mind boggling. You think they would have a ton of YouTube video of the factory, advantages of the engine, installations, etc. as well as getting at least 50 engines flying. But they seem to want all the big money up front. It's all backwards, but then not unusual for companies to have little or no comprehension of the marketplace and what it takes to make sales. At this time, what are we to think? We don't know how good the company is, how good the engine is, and how many installations there are, etc. When people have so many unanswered questions, they don't buy.

 

 

[Downunder]

The near total lack of marketing by D motors is mind boggling. You think they would have a ton of YouTube video of the factory, advantages of the engine, installations, etc. as well as getting at least 50 engines flying. But they seem to want all the big money up front. It's all backwards, but then not unusual for companies to have little or no comprehension of the marketplace and what it takes to make sales. At this time, what are we to think? We don't know how good the company is, how good the engine is, and how many installations there are, etc. When people have so many unanswered questions, they don't buy.

Spot on! Getting engines to TBO and publishing the fact. Getting aircraft manufacturers to offer it as a factory engine.

 

So many things that can be done and need to be done to "prove" the engine in the market place.

 

If they cannot price it competitively against a Rotax, then they need to prove it's reliability and performance.

 

If they cannot prove it, buyers will default to the Rotax.

 

 

[AZDave]

Yes, and especially they should try to get some installations and coverage for AU re: Jabiru problems which is a golden opportunity to them.

 

 

[facthunter]

All goes to show it's not easy to produce and market a simple cheap reliable motor that's fool proof enough to stand the way they are handled/ used by some people. Nev

 

 

[bexrbetter]

The near total lack of marketing by D motors is mind boggling. You think they would have a ton of YouTube video of the factory, advantages of the engine, installations, etc.

Indeed, Youtube is a powerful free marketing tool as are forums and social media, and yet there's literally nothing on them.

 

I have had an engine manufacturer let me know they are willing to put in an effort when (if) my plane kits take off, that's the sort of "get them out there" marketing you do.

 

 

[Oscar]

The near total lack of marketing by D motors is mind boggling. You think they would have a ton of YouTube video of the factory, advantages of the engine, installations, etc. as well as getting at least 50 engines flying. But they seem to want all the big money up front. It's all backwards, but then not unusual for companies to have little or no comprehension of the marketplace and what it takes to make sales. At this time, what are we to think? We don't know how good the company is, how good the engine is, and how many installations there are, etc. When people have so many unanswered questions, they don't buy.

May I offer a different perspective, based on personal experience? (And this is absolutely NOT a criticism of D-motor in any shape or form.) It is based on a long-time exposure to CAMit operation, and though I am somewhat reticent to discuss too much of that, I think I can draw some observations without compromising Ian Bent's IP - and there's no extant CAMit production - more is the damn pity.

 

And yes, I AM going to beat a familiar drum, though I hope not too hard to cause flaming reaction - I believe there are lessons here that may now be too late to be taken on board, so for those who wish to flog a dead horse re all thing Jabiru or related, how about giving that away and looking at the broader issues?

 

We see, in aviation, all too frequently, 'grand ideas' touted as the answer to the maiden's prayer. You can easily pick these: there is a flashy web-site, some CAD stuff, text promising revolutionary performance etc., and some oh, so beguiling mock-up images. And often, on the tabs to the web-site, one called 'Investors', offering the chance to get a piece of the action.. Not all that far removed from a Nigerian 'make a fortune' scam actually, but with images..

 

To develop an aero-engine to certificated or certified status takes a vast amount of energy, cost, time, research, trial, adjustment, re-test etc.

 

From what I have seen, there are two distinct styles of 'manufacturer' ( to use the term loosely).

 

The first example I will use here, is one with which I am personally acquainted ( for reasons that need not be explained, one of the Directors of this company buttonholed me in - an Aldi carpark!! - to ask me to join in the development exercise.). See: CoAxe Engine Company | Coaxial Engine Innovations

 

This is a classic example of what I call the 'flashy BS' approach. Those with long memories will recall the name 'Ralph Sarich' ... Try: Ralph Sarich - Wikipedia

 

What you will see, is a very successful investment campaign - Sarich became very, very rich. What you WON'T see, is any history of a produced 'Orbital Engine'..

 

Then there is the other approach: the true engineering professional one. This approach is the one used by those who actually intend to produce a good product.

 

Very rarely do you even see anything of the early development, until there is at least a prototype running. The performance figures, the weight etc,. comes from RECORDED fact.

 

In the case of CAMit, of course it was intricately linked to Jabiru from the first. And Jabiru itself also did the 'here's what we HAVE to sell you' route - not the 'here's your wet-dream machine, just send us a lot of $$ to get a place in the production queue' route. Rod Stiff and Phil Ainsworth put their money up front to make the things, CAMit came on board to develop and make the 2200 and 3300- engines. In neither case, was anybody asked to 'send us the money and hope for the product' - it was ENTIRELY: 'here's the product you can buy'.

 

When CAMit decided to try to manufacture its own engine - based on the experience of having manufactured over 5,000 engines - it did not seek investment based on pretty pictures and BS text. It MADE the various developmental versions, tested them, had them running in customer aircraft with clients who understood that what they were installing was experimental. If real-time flight testing uncovered a problem, CAMit fixed it. ( including, problems entirely NOT of CAMit's making, such as a failed oil-cooler hose that necessitated a complete rebuild of the engine... that's customer service..)

 

I don't follow either D-motor or UL-power with much interest, but in both cases, I note there are real examples flying and gathering data. Personally, I consider that to be proof positive that these companies are genuinely manufacturing a product worthy of consideration. If D-motor are not 'spruiking' their product at the moment, just perhaps it is because they have the ethics of not promising anything more than they can demonstrate they can deliver?

 

 

[onetrack]

As an aside, and as someone who first met and dealt with Ralph Sarich in 1965, when he was a crawler tractor salesman for Tutt Bryant W.A., I can honestly say I doubt very much that he's a scammer, or a deceit merchant.

 

I do believe Ralph was a very good salesperson, though, and a brilliant "ideas" man.

 

However, as with all his ilk, he left the fine details of development of his ideas to others - while he focused on the "bigger picture" of corporate development and progression.

 

I would say that Ralph considered he was on a winner with the Orbital engine (which he apparently thought up, after sighting a dis-assembled hydraulic vane pump from a crawler tractor) - but the simple fact was, the engine design was simply never going to fly, because of its intractable lubrication, sealing, and cooling problems.

 

Ralph got lucky when BHP threw $500M into his company in the early stages, thinking they were on to a winner - but as with many BHP investments, it wasn't.

 

The Orbital Engine Co did make some major developments in the field of air-assisted fuel injection, which is technology in use today, in a number of applications.

 

CAMIT obviously failed by trying to wear engine development costs and failures by itself, which you can't do. You need a wealthy backer, or backers, to bring a new design engine to full development and production, because it purely and simply costs a lot of money to do so.

 

Vehicle and engine manufacturers nearly always continue with improvements to known designs, rather than start again with "clean sheet" designs, purely because of the massive development costs, and potential bug fixes, in "clean sheet" designs.

 

 

[Yenn]

"Vehicle and engine manufacturers nearly always continue with improvements to known designs, rather than start again with "clean sheet"

 

Onetrack. Isn't that exactly what Camit did, using the Jab design and altering it slightly?

 

 

[geoffreywh]

The "D" motor was a clean sheet design. It, apparently, works just fine. Where are the adverts?

 

 

[onetrack]

Yenn, I'm not privy to every facet of the Camit engine design, and the work that went into it - I can only go on what the Camit Wiki page says ...

 

"Many parts are interchangeable with the original components from Jabiru 3300 engine. However, in terms of component design, lubrication, valve train operation and metallurgy, the CAE engine is a completely different motor to the Jabiru design."