NT5224 Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Hi folks new back on here after a couple of years away. Apologies for asking something that comes up fairly regularly. But always value informed opinions. I have held a RAA certificate since 2005 -with the usual endorsements- but have only worked up just over a hundred hours since then. So definitely a 'low hours' aviator seeking to build hours and airmanship. My consistent problem has been lack of access to aircraft. Since 2005 I have hired club planes to keep my ticket current, and done the necessary check flights along the way. But because of where I live its proving rather expensive and awkward logistically to arrange these hires. So I'm pretty much committed to invest in my own pair of wings. Here's my question: Is it advisable to buy a cheap rag and tube flying machine as a first step to get hours up (which is my main problem), or is it better to take the plunge and get the more expensive (new) aircraft I've got my heart set on. If I go cheap rag and tuber as an interim there'll doubtless be high maintenance costs from the outset. And even though I buy it cash-down, it will likely have little resale value and delay my eventual purchase of the aircraft I actually want. A couple of other relevant points. We live on a property out bush where we will build a strip and 'home' hanger the aircraft. So owning a aircraft is for us as much a practical transport solution as a recreational activity and is a long term investment- we'll be flying it another 20 years, all being well. My wife will be using our aircraft to go through her own flight training - with a qualified FI. So buy a cheapie first to get hours up, or go the route of investing in a new aircraft sooner rather than later? I've spoken to mates and FIs at the club and opinions are divided. Thoughts? Cheers Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 whats your budget? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solowflyer Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 There is an old saying if it flys floats or f$?ks rent it. Having said that go with what you really will use and get most enjoyment from. Fast is not always the most fulfilling, I'm a full time commercial pilot but instead of wanting to fly faster I dream of going slow and spitting out bugs in my teeth. 2 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayavner Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Well lots of options here Alan - http://www.raa.asn.au/market/ pretty much across the budget spectrum. As well as here in the classifieds. Maybe as f_t implies, if you know what your budget is, why not see what's available. There's rag and tubes way north of 30K, and there are some nice honest fliers under $20K (boingk's minicab comes to mind, but i think he sold) so there are definitely options! Welcome to the site as well! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrZoos Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Im absolutely no expert, but after having just laid down the cash on one, i can say you will have trouble selling anything in the current market. Have a look at the few sites that list them and you will see most ads have been listed for several years.. The sellers we dealt with have all had thier aircraft for sale for ages.... So buying one to then sell will be a big hurdle. We went used and saved over $60 k which is a lot of part and labour... up our sleeve. But i think you would create a rod for your back if you bought one you then had to sell. New v used only you can decide. What you save in parts you will lose much more in depreciation / resale. Not many are getting anywhere near the prices they are advertised for. Several we contacted dropped there prices 30% + without us even asking. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 I don't see an advantage in building hours in a cheaper aircraft than you really want. The operating cost is only fuel and the annual, unless you buy something that needs a lot of work. So get the aircraft you really want and that suits your needs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregrobertson Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Hi Alan. I hope there will never be a better time to buy a good used aircraft. There are so many on the market at present and many at give away prices. One I would recommend is a Skyranger Swift based at Wedderburn south of Sydney. I t has something like 240 hours on it from new and is a nicely built aircraft. Very good STOL capability and a very rugged little machine. I know the aircraft and owner personally. I believe Doug is asking $38,000 and at that money it is a gift. Greg. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NT5224 Posted September 10, 2013 Author Share Posted September 10, 2013 Thanks to all for the useful comments..... Good point on the state of the market for used recreational aircraft, and advantages of buying a good used one. I've been scrutinising the classifieds of the RAA magazine for years now... Yes the 'sensible' thing would be to go for a good pre-loved aircraft. Trouble is -and its maybe a heart over head thing - I've always liked those tandem Cub-based designs. I was thinking about an Eastern European Zlin (Savage) Cub, which, with hardened undercarriage, tundra tyres and dual controls prices about the same as a Jab 230, but will fly from my home and put down on beaches and paddocks. The Jabiru is awesome, more bang for your buck and higher performance all round , but won't fly off our home strip. Ironically -going back to my original post, the Cub is itself slow and rag and tube, but that's not all bad for the Top End . If I could find something like that in the used markets I would grab it quick. If I was to buy new, unlikely that I would ever sell (at least until I get too old to fly) so for me depreciation is less of a concern. Wish I liked the way the Savannah STOL looked, but unfortunately I don't. What I gather from your posts, if we bought a old used Drifter or Thruster cheaply as an interim we would struggle to sell it on, so I'm sensing that its better to pay more for a more suitable aircraft that we're gonna keep... (whatever that may be) . Correct? Cheers Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Alan, Don 't go past a good low-time Savannah XL, with the reliable 912s. Rugged as for your type of country, and very user friendly to fly even in high winds. Heaps of fuel with the long- range tanks (150 Lts at 17-18 LPH), and a good Xcountry cruiser. With the Tundra tires you can land them just about anywhere. You and wife may just fall in love with it. If you buy well and look after it, you'll get most of your money back come upgrade time. All metal also with a few. Fibreglass bits....................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Thanks to all for the useful comments..... Wish I liked the way the Savannah STOL looked, but unfortunately I don't. What I gather from your posts, if we bought a old used Drifter or Thruster cheaply as an interim we would struggle to sell it on, so I'm sensing that its better to pay more for a more suitable aircraft that we're gonna keep... (whatever that may be) . Correct? Cheers Alan Whats wrong with this????? its a not so ugly duckling anymore 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Mine does 85 kts at 5000 rpm and can land and takeoff in less than a football field..cruises with my 72 inch bolly at around 15 to 16 litres an hour and now with the 600kg upgrade can carry almost 300kg !!!!!! and its comfortable for 2 people and I am a large lump at 187cm at 125kg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 the flip side of that is, what ever you buy make sure it suits you as you will lose money offloading it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 the flip side of that is, what ever you buy make sure it suits you as you will lose money offloading it. Not necessarily FT ...I paid $16,000 for my 582 low hour CB Drifter, owned it for 11 years, did 650 hrs in her and sold her to the first to see it for $16,500 !!!!!....all a matter of how you keep it really.... New owner and his son have now trained and soled in her....................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 It suited you, if you kept it for 11 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Page Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Alan The main question, is most of your flying short close trip? Depending on the distance of your trips do you need a slow one or fast one? You mentioned you live on a property if that is the case you do your stock water runs by air. If it is short trips around the bush, the trusty Lightwing tail dragger would be worth considering, they are safe and solid, and they are a joy to fly. Regards Keith Page. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Whats wrong with this????? its a not so ugly duckling anymore Get real Mark, show him an S model..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrZoos Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Its like real estate the best time to buy or upgrade is in a lull. New prices arent down, but used are down. So right now if your buying used its a great time to buy. Just like real estate its a great time to buy the best used one you can afford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 If Australia follows the US, aircraft prices will continue to decline as the pilot population age increases... basically not a lot of competition from younger wealthier pilots for older pilots planes. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParkesFlyer Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 There are a few foxbats around at bargain prices. Very rugged, very STOL, lots of room in the Cabin and unsurpassed visability. My club has a different aircraft for hire now, but I still hire a foxy occasionally as they are such a breeze to fly. :) PF. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 There are a few foxbats around at bargain prices. Very rugged, very STOL, lots of room in the Cabin and unsurpassed visability. My club has a different aircraft for hire now, but I still hire a foxy occasionally as they are such a breeze to fly.:) PF. the Foxys have had some dramas with cracking in the tail and undercarriage attach areas.............Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NT5224 Posted September 11, 2013 Author Share Posted September 11, 2013 "Alan The main question, is most of your flying short close trip? Depending on the distance of your trips do you need a slow one or fast one? You mentioned you live on a property if that is the case you do your stock water runs by air. If it is short trips around the bush, the trusty Lightwing tail dragger would be worth considering, they are safe and solid, and they are a joy to fly. Regards Keith Page" Keith have given lots of thought to speed vrs shortfield ability. Of course we'd love to tour with our aircraft -making a low performance rag and tuber impractical- but at the end of the day being able to fly from home will be a deal breaker. I love the Jab 230 performance , but that plastic fantastic lands too fast. We are fortunate to live in some very beautiful country so there's lots of nice spots to access locally if we can put down on rough strips, paddocks and beaches. I have a strong preference for tail dragging (generally sturdier undercarriage) but when I flew Lightwings some years ago I wasn't particularly inspired. It was a great aircraft, easy to fly and tough, but I'm not sure it had that 'wow' factor I'd want if I'm gonna part with a big chunk of money. Also I think I'd prefer something a little faster with flaps, and as I mentioned above I have a (maybe illogical) preference for tandem seating arrangements. We don't run cattle so the aircraft won't do stockwork, but might do some firespotting. Cheers Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrZoos Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 the Foxys have had some dramas with cracking in the tail and undercarriage attach areas.............Maj... I think my undercarriage would crack if i got landed like a lot of people land training aircraft (of which there are a lot of foxbats) wonder if its just a correlation ...ours has been smashed for years no problems at all. Lots to love about foxxies 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 NT5224, have you looked at the carbon cub? . I wouldn't go for the forward mounted big wheels unless I was flying in Alaska. Forward mounted makes ground looping easier, and It's done for extreme braking. I wouldn't go for a super big engine either. 150 hp is plenty. I've seen a couple of kits being built recently. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 Nev a carbon cub...holy crap you almost have to rob a bank to be able to afford one The highlander in tail dragger might be a go for you NT 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_d Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 Hornet STOL? Not tandem, but then not much is these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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