Jabiru limitations

[turboplanner]

Frank I think "uncertified and unproven" while true as a statement doesn't give a fair impression of the situation, existing here.. CAMit have always manufactured the Jabiru engine, so would have a fairly good idea of the path it has gone down.IF a mod HAS to improve the performance of a part and couldn't expect to degrade it because of better materials and manufacturing techniques/design while still being able to be fitted to the certified engine, Why can't it just be accepted subject to some extra observations and testing of that PART. They aren't breaking new barriers into the unknown in metallurgy here. This kind of change happens all the time with the big stuff, and occasionally they have to pull a big rabbit out of a big hat.. Certify and sit still doesn't work. It's a straight jacket .

I believe CAE engines are exempted from this directive anyhow so the qualifications and efforts of the manufacturer are accepted somewhat. Maybe they think a bit of pressure will force a reconciliation and they will make babies. Even the family court wouldn't go down that path. Nev

On a previous thread it became clear that very few CAMit engines exist FH. So few that I would classify them as trial units.

 

One person suggested there were thousands, possibly inferring that since CAMit made Jabiru engines they were CAMit engines, in which case they would form part of the Limitation.

 

I'm of the opinion that while Jabiru's solution could be among the hundreds of armchair suggestions, there is always the possibility, based on my past experience that there is something inherent in the base engine causing the problem, and if that was the case then someone building the same engine but with detail improvements could well run into some of the same issues.

 

Random problems are an engine manufacturer's worst nightmare because there's no set time they occur - the problem can occur on startup on the production line, right out to almost full engine life.

 

Multiply this by the fact that problems only occur in a minority of engines, and you can't even run one to destruction on the dyno, because it's most likely to be a good one.

 

For these reasons you can't make claims based on a few good engines to date, and I've noted previously that CAMit themselves are not doing that, to their credit.

 

 

[facthunter]

Frank, I suspect some have seen the product parts and the obvious "upgrade" on the previous article. Shall we call them weaknesses or areas of criticality in the design, being addressed. Some installations of the ordinary motors are operating fine and the advice is to keep running them, if that is the case

 

There's a newer CAMit motor freed from the need to make parts retrofit the existing engines as much as they do at the moment, but it's still based on it generically, but with a lot of improvements. The starter drive is out the front behind the prop for instance, like a Lycoming. There are better people than me to get the details of it all from. Nev

 

 

[jetjr]

What if a company now released,after 15 years work and 100'000 hrs testing, an upgrade to Jabirus engines that totally fixed its problems. A real safety improvement good for everyone.

 

How could this possibly be implemented?

 

Jabiru wont approve it so cant fit to LSA aircraft

 

Anyone else, even those flying exp or 19 reg would still be restricted so why bother

 

They have set up a position which cant be escaped from

 

The new product would sit dead, company dissappears.

 

19 reg can fit a Asian ( or italian) designed copy auto engine if they like BUT have operational restrictions when using Jabiru?? Not logical CASA.

 

The current setup for LSA and this limitation process (as was said around 100 pages of posts ago) cannot deliver results. It certainly wont deliver to those seeking retribution for problems experienced in the past.

 

The implementation of a waiver is likely to drive more non compliance, deliberate or not and less respect for regulations. Its already a problem in SB and maintenance.

 

The ones its going to hurt are existing owners and businesses like CAE.

 

Jabiru could decide to fit Rotax engines to new aircraft tomorrow and move on.

 

I believe there will not be a joint venture between Jabiru and Camit, Jabiru seriously believe they have the issues sorted out and are even blocking advancement of Camits work and probably see CAE as a threat.

 

Even if they are forced to work with someone else it cannot last or be sustainable.

 

 

[jetjr]

TP your right, all the engines camit made for Jabiru do fall inder the restriction.

 

Similarly these older versions suffered far less problems than Jabirus hydraulic lifter types yet are still covered by limitations.

 

If read correctly, the thread indicated that these thousands of engines were in fact built by Camit and upon this base further improvements had been made.

 

Somehow your suggesting its a new engine and needs to start from scratch

 

The new CAE engines are VERY similar to older solid lifter Jabiru supplied units with important upgrades.

 

Really not sure what you hope gain from deprecating their worth or pedigree

 

 

[biggles]

My view at this stage is don't go there . Nev..

Agreed ! ......... Bob

 

 

[turboplanner]

Really not sure what you hope gain from deprecating their worth or pedigree

I'm not deprecating anyone's worth or pedigree.

I'd suggest you reread my post more carefully.

 

 

[Russ]

A sentence within a mail from Camit......" We build / supply engines to jabiru, to THEIR specifications" .....period.

 

The Camit engine is to Camits specs, jab forced Camit from further proceeding to "certification" ( this now situation has curtailed things, but stay tuned ) ...I hope

 

 

[Oscar]

Nev, I am not knocking the Camit mods etc. by any means the point being that without "runs on the board" what proof is being used - Automatically accept it is better, over one I have no problems with anyway, It it just stated over and over like it is accepted fact. I am not knocking the work in any way just the apparent "approval"

Frank - to use the term 'approval' in regard to CAMit engines ( i.e. CAE-plated ones, not rebuild Jabiru ones that retain the primary Jabiru plate plus the CAE modifications plate), is technically incorrect. The CAE engines are not currently 'approved', but they are also not Jabiru engines by legal definition and so are not subject to the CASA restriction on the engine.

 

A Part 21 M engineer could issue an EO for 24'C' reg (and 55-reg, for that matter) aircraft that had a 'Jabiru' engine installed, to replace it with a CAE engine. The Part 21 M engineer responsible for running the original certification for the 2200 engine to the JAR 22H standard was well across the changes and prepared - following successful completion of the JAR 22H standard test runs regime on the CAE engine - to issue EOs accordingly. That testing, in a suitable facility, was just about to start when complications with IP rights were raised by Jabiru. The ins-and-outs of that issue are not for me to discuss nor comment upon.

 

Because of some particularly obstructive application of its regulations by CASA, replacement by an EO is made extremely paper-work intensive and requires a useless set of hoops to be jumped through. It becomes a serious question as to whether it is worth the effort for a company such as CAMit to pursue this route.

 

The next level of 'approval' for CAE engines would be certification to JAR 22h, requiring a set of test runs in a suitable test facility (approved by CASA) and observed by CASA. While the test regime only requires 50 hours of running to extremely specific standards that are deemed to emulate real-life use, the estimated cost for each engine is of the order of $350k ( and that is very much an 'economy' price, calling on some long-time friendships between all the participants and much goodwill). While that would get away from the necessity for the individual EO for each replacement installation, again, the question of whether CAMit could recoup just the costs of the testing given the size of the market, does not look promising - at least as a short-term investment.

 

From a market survival POV, CAMit's best option is to have its engines ASTM certified and sell them to the world market. ASTM certifying has a formula that allows an initial TBO to be applied dependent on the amount of time the engine has successfully run in the test conditions (again, these are a range of specific conditions similar to, but not exactly the same as, the JAR 22H test regime). For a 1000-hour initial TBO - which is realistically the minimum that would be attractive in the market-place - that would require 200 hours of test running. (Incidentally, there are engine tear-downs, inspections etc. required for both JAR 22H and ASTM certification / certifying - the cost isn't just putting the petrol in and running the thing). 200 hours of test running does not automatically mean 4 times the 50-hour JAR 22H cost - but it would be a very, very sizeable chunk of money, nonetheless.

 

Obviously, unless Jabiru accepts the CAE engines as approved for LSA certified Jabiru aircraft, a big chunk of CAMit's potential market in Australia is denied to it. CASA could make a determination that allowed a variation from the 'usual' ASTM manufacturer-exclusive right to approve (or not..) modifications to its aircraft if it had the will to do that.

 

However - unless either Jabiru or CASA shifts its current position, the most likely market for CAE engines would be for aircraft NOT made in Australia. That is, providing CAMit is not drowned in the tsunami engulfing Jabiru at the moment.

 

 

[Teckair]

My 160C.........is casa type certified, that must include the engine I assume.

Not necessarily.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

No restrictions apply yet. If it does go ahead:

 

1. After 4,700 hours of operating Jabiru Aircraft without an engine failure my RAAus business will close.

 

2. People in my area will start flying imported aircraft with imported engines.

 

3. Safety will be damaged (based American research the safest LSA is the Jabiru - by along way!).

 

Lets hope CASA do not implement there proposal!

It will definitely proceed, the instrument is already signed by the acting DAS and a process devoid of any decision points need only occur within broader Government (presumably the AG's portfolio) over the next few days.

 

The more realistic question is, "Will the new DAS Mark Skidmore be swayed by logical argument to see the deficiencies in what has occurred so far and revisit....timing is everything if he revisits immediately then great, if its over 6 months then it may be too little too late."

 

Andy

 

 

[DWF]

I have a dilemma which I think may affect others as well.

 

 

 

I have a young student, who has done all his training in a LSA Jabiru, and is almost ready for his first solo.

 

The CASA Instrument has been proposed but not implemented ... yet.

 

As far as I can see the activation of the Instrument does not affect the actual risk involved in flying a Jabiru powered aircraft.

 

We (or most of us) have been willing to accept the engine failure risk for many years to this point in time. That risk has not changed.

 

 

 

Ignoring for the moment the arguments for and against the Instrument but knowing that the activation of the Instrument is potentially imminent should I:

 

a) send the student solo now before the Instrument is activated,

 

b) send the student solo now, before the Instrument is activated, but brief the student and parents on the impending Instrument and have them sign the "form",

 

[as far as I can see this is not leagally required but there may be a moral obligation],

 

c) wait until the situation is resolved (which may be a long time),

 

d) take up bowls?

 

 

 

Any other suggestions?

 

 

 

DWF

 

 

[frank marriott]

(d) That's what appears to be the aim.

 

 

[facthunter]

Feet will be provided for all shooters. Situation normal. AFU.

 

Bowling clubs appear to have more arguments than in aviation, and they just drink too much afterwards. Even the balls are biased. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

e) Jabiru approve a 912IS FWF option and make a ton of money and support their customers

 

just kidding, that's never going to happen. Rod won't back down

 

 

[facthunter]

Makes it a pretty expensive aeroplane for what it is. Hypothetical anyway. Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

DWF. You need to make that decision based on a relevant risk assesment.

 

Risk is defined as the likelihood of a negative occurrence and the consequence if it does occur.

 

If your guy Is trained well anf he is ready to solo ( which should be the only factor- in a perfect world) then the consequence of an engine failure should be " tolerable" and likelihood of it failing on his solo flight SHOULD be pretty minimal.

 

However, this instrument adds complexity to the situation ( which sux)

 

By adding ( IMHO) an added risk to YOU. But, applying the same analysis as the above , the risk is still very low, but the consequence now Involves YOU much more then it did a week ago.

 

My advice would be not to hold him back but certainly inform him and the oldies of what's happening.

 

Do you have another option ( aircraft)?

 

 

[DWF]

DWF. You need to make that decision based on a relevant risk assesment.Risk is defined as the likelihood of a negative occurrence and the consequence if it does occur.

If your guy Is trained well anf he is ready to solo ( which should be the only factor- in a perfect world) then the consequence of an engine failure should be " tolerable" and likelihood of it failing on his solo flight SHOULD be pretty minimal.

 

However, this instrument adds complexity to the situation ( which sux)

 

By adding ( IMHO) an added risk to YOU. But, applying the same analysis as the above , the risk is still very low, but the consequence now Involves YOU much more then it did a week ago.

 

My advice would be not to hold him back but certainly inform him and the oldies of what's happening.

 

Do you have another option ( aircraft)?

Thanks MM

 

I am satisfied that there is no change in the risk of an engine failure which I have been willing to accept for the past 700 hours of Jabiru flying.

 

You are correct in the Instrument (whether activated or not) increases the onus/risk on me in deciding to send the student solo - or even flying dual.

 

In informing him and his parents of the instrument there is the possibility (likelyhood?) of increasing their aprehension about flying RAAus.

 

I possibly have an alternative aircraft available (Tecnam Bravo) but it would involve some negotiation with the owner and a considerable increase in cost to the student in transferring to another aircraft type at a critical stage in his training.

 

 

 

DWF

 

 

[Russ]

[quote="

 

just kidding, that's never going to happen. Rod won't back down

 

Yip......he'll go down with the sinking ship, that's a gimey. ( probably signing sales contracts with America and South Africa as we speak ) .....watch this space.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes DWF. The instrument is designed (I spose) to inform people, so they can make decisions based on relevant info. Best you can do is "inform them" and let them decide what they want to do.

 

 

[gandalph]

e) Jabiru approve a 912IS FWF option and make a ton of money and support their customers

FT, Perhaps this note from Phil Ainsworth written in 1994 while he Joint Managing Director of Jabiru Australia might enlighten you.

 

"After 4 years development of the Jabiru aircraft a CAA Certificate of Type Approval was awarded on 1 October 1991. One month later, the Italian engine manufacturer (KFM) advised Jabiru that they had decided to cease aircraft engine manufacture. After an exhaustive investigation of all alternatives, including a visit to Italy to examine the possibility of manufacturing the KFM engine under licence, Jabiru decided that the only viable alternative to completely redesigning and recertifying the aircraft was to design, build and certify a new Australian aero engine.

 

Many people have asked us why we went to the trouble of designing and certifying a new aero engine when all we had to do was to fit the Rotax 912. The following attempts to explain our thought process and our final decision to create the Jabiru 1600 Aero Engine. The first problem to address is the increased weight of the 912. On the hook, ready to install the 912 weighs 81kg (not the advertised weight, but the installed weight complete with exhaust system, oil cooling system, liquid cooling system, carby induction & heat system, oil tanks, fluids, hoses, engine mount frame, support brackets, clamps & hardware).

 

This compares to the 56 kg of the Jabiru 1600 engine and 63kg for the previous KFM112M. The additional 27kg well in front of the CG position will require additional ballasting. Note that the KFM required 2kg of lead in the Ventral Fin and that the Jabiru engine requires nil ballast. The 912 would therefore require around 6kg of lead to bring the CG within flight range.

 

The empty weight of the Jabiru aircraft is 235kg plus 32kg (27 additional engine + 6kg ballast) = 267kg which allows only 162kg usable load (430-267), or 2 x 80kg occupants and 3kg of fuel. Note that the Jabiru has an approved MTOW of 430kg which is both a structural and stall speed limitation. Remember that stall speed increases with weight. The Jabiru aircraft has a small (85sqft) wing with slotted and large stall strips and is stretched to its limits to achieve the necessary 40kt flapped and 45kt clean stall speeds. So, lets add more wing, this reduces stall speed but adds weight and doesn't solve anyCG problems, it also increases the need for extra fuselage length, extra tailplane, fin and rudder area to compensate for theadditional wing area. Again more weight!

 

So let's upgrade the gross weight. This requires a complete revalidation of the airframe structural loads and remember that this is the first composite aircraft to be Type Certificated in Australia, and one of very few in the world. Now we are still overweight but we have, in the process, dramatically changed the design of the aircraft. So, back to flight testing: a full flight test programme which took 7 months of hard work in the first place, will have to be redone. But now we have the additional problem, that the aircraft with 79hp on board now exceeds 100kt straight and level, and therefore we are required to complete a full ground vibration programme at a cost of around $30,000 minimum, and another 3 months work. Also, we must now mass balance the ailerons and rudder - more weight: (say another 5kg). So, we have... ....added extra wing area ....lengthened the fuselage ....increased fin, tailplane & rudder area ....added 5kg mass balance... and we only started with 2 x 80kg occupants + 3kg fuel! As you can see, there is no clear solution to the weight/CG/stall speed/structural problem. But we haven't finished there!

 

We now have to match the propeller to the geared 912 which means a new propeller design and propeller certification ($10,000), assuming we can transmit 79hp on a 54" diameter propeller at the low final drive RPM output of the 912. We can't inrease the prop. diameter without increasing undercarriage height, because we are at minimum clearance now. So, assuming we have achieved all of the above and probably redesigned the undercarriage for more ground clearance and for increased MTOW (and the extra weight on the nosegear), we now face noise Certification again (another $10,000).

 

We now have a 912 Jabiru. What have we really got? The market price has increased by at least another $10,000. As an Australian manufacturer we are now totally reliant on an imported engine, as we were with the KFM (and remember that story), with all the vagaries of supply, currency variations, pricing policies of a European supplier. The aircraft now burns 16L/h compared to the Jabiru engine's 12L/h. We just lost another 1 hour endurance and increased our operating costs by $3.60 per hour for fuel, plus the high service costs of the 912. ....."

 

 

[ave8rr]

As an Australian manufacturer we are now totally reliant on an imported engine, as we were with the KFM (and remember that story), with all the vagaries of supply, currency variations, pricing policies of a European supplier.

Jabiru now imports many components from China for Camit assembled Jabiru engines.

 

 

[gandalph]

Jabiru now imports many components from China for Camit assembled Jabiru engines.

Is that true? What components?

 

 

[fly_tornado]

gandalph, I don't expect Jabiru to back down

 

 

[gandalph]

gandalph, I don't expect Jabiru to back down

That's ok FT. I never expected you would either, not even when presented with a rational explanation.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

That's ok FT. I never expected you would either, not even when presented with a rational explanation.

Gandalph that explanation related to an MTOW of 430kg's hardly the case today, nor is the aircraft we are talking about even close to the same thing anymore.

 

But, it is still the case that a 912 wont simply slot in there will be engineering work required

 

Andy