facthunter Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Pilots get it right more than Doctors do. Doctors don't go down with the ship or plane and make plenty of mistakes or misdiagnosis. When a pilot makes a boo boo hundreds die. Pilot's go to gaol in some countries, and get out if they prove themselves innocent. If you get 100% in a CASA exam , it proves you don't know an awful lot, as the way the questions are set if you have a lot of knowledge in the particular subject you will get answers wrong. You have to know JUST enough. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cscotthendry Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 I soloed in the trike at 12 hours. Was I ready? I thought so at the time, but as time went on, I realised that a few more hours under instruction would have better prepared me, especially for the turbulence. I remember that my instructor asked me the night before whether I thought I could get the trike safely on the ground if something happened to him and I answered "yes". Landing has always been strongest part of my flying so I had no fear that I could get the trike back down safely. The next day, my instructor took me up for three circuits, then he got out and I did two solo circuits. It was a bit of an anti-climax. I was already aware of the existing conditions and the only thing that was different was that the trike climbed faster and wanted to float more on approach. My confidence in my landings was put to the test the day after my solo when we flew our respective trikes to a nearby airfield that had trees very close to the runway and there was a 10-12KT direct crosswind. When I got to the tops of the trees, the rotor off the trees hit and slewed the trike smartly sideways. I hit the noise pedal and went around, but I was shaking like a leaf all through the second circuit and for a while after the landing ... but I DID get it back down safely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 It is interesting hearing that some instructors ask the student if they are ready to solo. I have heard this from time to time. I am not an instructor so I honestly dont know whether it is a good thing or a bad thing. My first solo was in 1990 in a Drifter so I am going from memory, but im pretty sure Graham hopped out just after I did a couple of circuits and simply said that he as getting out and as he buckled the rear seat belts together and then he said the next circuit is on your own. Or something like that. I like the idea that I didnt know about it until the actual time it was happening. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roundsounds Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 It is interesting hearing that some instructors ask the student if they are ready to solo. I have heard this from time to time. I am not an instructor so I honestly dont know whether it is a good thing or a bad thing.My first solo was in 1990 in a Drifter so I am going from memory, but im pretty sure Graham hopped out just after I did a couple of circuits and simply said that he as getting out and as he buckled the rear seat belts together and then he said the next circuit is on your own. Or something like that. I like the idea that I didnt know about it until the actual time it was happening. That method, in my opinion, is a hairy chested macho thing and has no place in aviation from a human factors perspective. Sure it's worked ok for many years, but I'd rather let the nerves settle in with me in the aeroplane than with me standing at the side of the runway. I've always given notice to the student, along the lines of "well I reckon you're getting near solo standard, how do you feel about it?" or "if you can repeat that standard next time I reckon you could go solo, what do you think?" 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrZoos Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Both have merits, but i prefer the later from a safety, cover your bum perspective. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 That method, in my opinion, is a hairy chested macho thing and has no place in aviation from a human factors perspective. Sure it's worked ok for many years, but I'd rather let the nerves settle in with me in the aeroplane than with me standing at the side of the runway. I've always given notice to the student, along the lines of "well I reckon you're getting near solo standard, how do you feel about it?" or "if you can repeat that standard next time I reckon you could go solo, what do you think?" In my case, I felt that I was ready, I am sure if I said that I didn't feel confident . Then it would of been fine and I wouldn't have gone solo. What I mean is there was no pressure to go solo at that point in time if that makes sense. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Think it is a hangover from the airforce days. They failed a % anyway. If you didn't just cop what you got dished out you lacked moral fibre or something. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_d Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 In my case, I felt that I was ready, I am sure if I said that I didn't feel confident . Then it would of been fine and I wouldn't have gone solo. What I mean is there was no pressure to go solo at that point in time if that makes sense. My experience was similar, 6 hours in a C172 at the age of 18 and the instructor just got me to pull up after a circuit and told me to keep going by myself. I was absolutely gobsmacked but if I really thought I couldn't handle it I would have said so... mind you at 18 you think you can handle anything. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Springing something on someone as important and risky as that could raise some eyebrows in a normal workplace. I think it is not necessary as a process. I have heard all the "reasons", but they wouldn't stand a solid analysis. To say to the student something like. I'm happy with your performance and think you are up to it. Are you ok with doing the next circuit without me there?. seems a reasonable way of putting it There shouldn't be any undue pressure to do anything, and to effectively make it difficult to refuse, isn't appropriate or justifiable. There is a power gradient in this game. People often don't exercise their right to "require" a different clearance with ATC even when they have been flying for years . (as an example) Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrZoos Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 One has to remember the instructor is confident the student can handle it or they wouldnt be getting out in the first place...that said if a student had an accident and it was discovered the instructir jumped out with no conversation, i think that instructor would have a LOT of difficulty proving the student was ready. Where as if they discussed it and agreed, then its a case of yes the instructor thought they where ready, and the student agreed and accepted the risks, with no pressure or duress... It could possibly be argued that an instructor diving out with no discussion is placing the student under duress to accept the situation and thus the entire blame for any accident will unquestionably be on the poor judgment and communication of the instructor Contributory negligence would suggest you should be having and documenting this discussion before flight and in the case of a minor having the parent sign a form to accept the risk. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmare Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 To be honest, I don't really care when I go solo, I am having too much fun, both in the air and learning about it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyflyer Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 One has to remember the instructor is confident the student can handle it or they wouldnt be getting out in the first place...that said if a student had an accident and it was discovered the instructir jumped out with no conversation, i think that instructor would have a LOT of difficulty proving the student was ready.Where as if they discussed it and agreed, then its a case of yes the instructor thought they where ready, and the student agreed and accepted the risks, with no pressure or duress... It could possibly be argued that an instructor diving out with no discussion is placing the student under duress to accept the situation and thus the entire blame for any accident will unquestionably be on the poor judgment and communication of the instructor Contributory negligence would suggest you should be having and documenting this discussion before flight and in the case of a minor having the parent sign a form to accept the risk. Oh come on! Documenting a discussion and sign a form before 15 yr old student goes solo! What are we becoming? Did the parents not think junior would go solo one day? Perhaps we should have a discussion, documentation session every night. Lots of people die in bed you know. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_d Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Pros and cons for both methods I guess. At the end of the day, the instructor is making a judgement about the student's readiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrZoos Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Oh come on! Documenting a discussion and sign a form before 15 yr old student goes solo! What are we becoming? Did the parents not think junior would go solo one day? Perhaps we should have a discussion, documentation session every night. Lots of people die in bed you know. you clealry have absolutley no idea of the current parental consent requirments I dont make the rules, but they are crystal clear whe it comes to parental comsnet and loco parentus in the eyes of the law...there is a list of precidents as long as your arm and then some This was required in 1993 and the consequences of not doing so have only become more certan and heavier ever since. Of course they know junior will go solo, but do they approve of him going solo after one lesson or 60....if you dont pin it down , you wont have a legal leg to stand on. And even if mum and dad approve, if it can be shown they and you sent the kid prematurely, you both can be held accountable....and liable. Spend any time working withh children and you will realize the legal responsivilities and ramifications are 100 times normal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmare Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 you clealry have absolutley no idea of the current parental consent requirmentsI dont make the rules, but they are crystal clear whe it comes to parental comsnet and loco parentus in the eyes of the law...there is a list of precidents as long as your arm and then some This was required in 1993 and the consequences of not doing so have only become more certan and heavier ever since. Of course they know junior will go solo, but do they approve of him going solo after one lesson or 60....if you dont pin it down , you wont have a legal leg to stand on. And even if mum and dad approve, if it can be shown they and you sent the kid prematurely, you both can be held accountable....and liable. Spend any time working withh children and you will realize the legal responsivilities and ramifications are 100 times normal I would have thought that a parent would have been giving their consent when they consented to let Junior learn to fly. Going solo is part of the curriculum as determined by the passing of the mandatory exams and when the instructor thinks they are ready... God help the stupid parents who withdraw consent to their 15 yo who has fought his or her way through all those hoops, put in all that time learning to fly safely, and made it to the brink of their first solo, only to be told they can't do it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrZoos Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 To send them solo, you would not necessarily have to have a new written form signed, but you would certainly need to prove you discussed the students readiness and the risks involved of that event with the parent. And you would have to prove that you thought the student was safe to go solo based on both any standards set, good judgment and your actions of loco parentis (acting as a parent to protect a child) In all honesty you wouldn't stand a legal chance in hell if there was an accident and you had not either 1. obtained a signed consent to send the minor solo outlining the event and risks; or 2. had at least a summarized and diarized or somehow proven, conversation where the parent agreed with the process and risks; 3. and ; Where able to prove that any reasonable instructor in the same circumstances thought the student was safe to do so The problem you face in not doing so, is it wouldnt be "informed consent" it would just be consent. And non informed consent is not good enough and hasnt been good enough for about 20 years. The parent has to be "FULLY" informed, and has to fully consent. And when circumstances and risk profiles change substantially ie: at the point of going solo, doing certain navs etc ...the parent should again give a new informed consent each and every time... I mean, seriously, how hard is it to cover your arse with a signed letter outlining the risks and it will stand up in court. Teachers do it day in day out for huge numbers of students..if instructors are not prepared to do this then they either should not be in the game or they stand to lose their house and the FTO assets with it. Its not a matter of if its a matter of when. Theme parks do it, almost any recreational or tourist activity does it... its just plain common sense... sign the document every time a new or changed risk happens. A decade in working with minors I can tell you kids and parents sue very often when a kid is hurt even for little things like broken wrists and thumbs, and sometimes when they simply get a freight. Do a legal search and you will find many, but they are a mere fraction, because most are settled as soon as its found they stuffed up in the slightest way possible and the insurance company panics and pays...which feeds the litigation cycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmare Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Sorry DrZoos, that is not a minor related issue, everyone who wants to be a pilot signs a statement saying they are aware of the risks involved, it's called the "Student Pilots License" application and yes, it has a part where a parent gives consent if the student is under 18 years old. Going solo is part of the flight training curriculum so further consent is not required. Look at https://www.raa.asn.au/storage/membership-application-fillable.pdf As I said, as a parent, do you really want to tell little Johny he can't fly when he has put in so much effort into getting that far? Such parents should be giving little Johny joy-flights instead of flight training! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrZoos Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Sorry DrZoos, that is not a minor related issue, everyone who wants to be a pilot signs a statement saying they are aware of the risks involved, it's called the "Student Pilots License" application and yes, it has a part where a parent gives consent if the student is under 18 years old. Going solo is part of the flight training curriculum so further consent is not required. Look at https://www.raa.asn.au/storage/membership-application-fillable.pdf As I said, as a parent, do you really want to tell little Johny he can't fly when he has put in so much effort into getting that far? Such parents should be giving little Johny joy-flights instead of flight training! Sorry but this is not correct...working over a decade with minors, organising all sorts of events and curriculum ...it doesnt matter, you must have parental consent for anything that involves a change in risk profile. Every excursion in a school is curriculum, but still requires a risk analysis and informed consent note period... Believe me we had the best lawyers in this field in Australia and our large organisation still got sued reasonably regularly.... If you are taking students solo without covering your bum with a signed informed consent or diarised conversation you are crazy - you will get sued if there is any sort of accident, and you wont have a legal leg to stand on... get a signed note outlining the risks and your home free unless you have proven negligence Without a signed consent the onus is on you to prove you did the right thing and with thier full and informed knowledge....with a signed consent the balance shifts exponentially as they now have to prove everything they claim and that they had no knowledge of the risks, events and or that you are negligent. This may sound minor, but in terms of the risk for initiating a legal challenge this is often the deciding factor. Without a note, they only have to say they dont recall, or you didnt explain it clearly, or they felt under pressure and your in the poo big time... with a note...they have to prove you negligent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 But when the student gets to be an OLD student, any knock back can place the student in depression, my instructor seemed happy with my flying + training, the CFI thought otherwise. I,ll probably take 5 years to have another try. thats close to 55 years learning to fly. "What exactly is your friend lacking confidence about?" TEST,S of any kind!. Too many bashing,s, Called schooling, By ex-soldiers demobbed & given jobs they weren't trained for. spacesailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrZoos Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 But when the student gets to be an OLD student, any knock back can place the student in depression, my instructor seemed happy with my flying + training, the CFI thought otherwise.I,ll probably take 5 years to have another try. thats close to 55 years learning to fly. "What exactly is your friend lacking confidence about?" TEST,S of any kind!. Too many bashing,s, Called schooling, By ex-soldiers demobbed & given jobs they weren't trained for. spacesailor WTF that is the most random post ever on this site Your making a regular flying weather event look like a rocket scientist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmare Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Sorry but this is not correct...working over a decade with minors, organising all sorts of events and curriculum ...it doesnt matter, you must have parental consent for anything that involves a change in risk profile. Every excursion in a school is curriculum, but still requires a risk analysis and informed consent note period...Believe me we had the best lawyers in this field in Australia and our large organisation still got sued reasonably regularly.... If you are taking students solo without covering your bum with a signed informed consent or diarised conversation you are crazy - you will get sued if there is any sort of accident, and you wont have a legal leg to stand on... get a signed note outlining the risks and your home free unless you have proven negligence Without a signed consent the onus is on you to prove you did the right thing and with thier full and informed knowledge....with a signed consent the balance shifts exponentially as they now have to prove everything they claim and that they had no knowledge of the risks, events and or that you are negligent. This may sound minor, but in terms of the risk for initiating a legal challenge this is often the deciding factor. Without a note, they only have to say they dont recall, or you didnt explain it clearly, or they felt under pressure and your in the poo big time... with a note...they have to prove you negligent. Courts look at "what a reasonable person would do". If a student has signed the Student License application that I mentioned in my previous post, and had it signed by a parent or guardian and witnessed by a JP as the application requires, the CFI and Instructor would be well and truly protected as far as the law is concerned should something was to go wrong during solo. Of course they would have to justify their decision that the student was ready at that time to go solo. Anyone can sue anyone for anything, the onus is on the complainant to present the evidence to the court and the plaintive to refute that evidence. The truth normally prevails. As far as a normal person is concerned, if a parent has given their consent as witnessed by a JP, for their child to commence, receive and complete flight training, the issue of consent is no longer relevant for that student for the purpose of going solo as it is part of the curriculum. Do parents sign consent forms in front of a JP to send their children to a school? I would say not. Is an excursion a part of the normal daily routine for a student at school? No, due to the many different scenarios that would present that is out of the ordinary for the student, like different location, activity etc as determined by the particular excursion, therefore parent consent would be required for that individual excursion. Is going solo a part of the normal routine for a student pilot? Of course it is, so in this context, consent has already been given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrZoos Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Best of luck with that, we will have to agree to disagree... I used to think along the exact lines you are speaking above...until I saw several cases where that got traction and the proof of informed consent thrown back on the institution...due to change in risk profile not being agreed to at that point in time.... As you say anyone can sue anyone for anything, but most will be unsuccessful. The problem arrises when one leaves them self open to a case gaining merit... because it then suddenly swings in favour of the victim.... and not having correct informed consent forms signed is a no brainer If the original forms specifically state that the point of going solo has significant risks attached and may involve serious injury and death, as well as the instructor will determine when that point is without discussion or consultation with the parent...you might possibly be slightly covered...but if you haven't made that clear in at least that level of detail, you absolutely HAVE NOT gained informed consent to send a minor solo based on your subjective opinion of when that student is ready. There are already so many ways to leave yourself open, why would you not take the dead simple step of having a parent sign a form to say they have agreed to the student (minor) and the risks have been explained and understood... this immediately removes an entire legal debate and challenge and makes one of the easiest legal avenues to sue you not available. For the sake of a 5 minute explanation and a 30 second form.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank marriott Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Some people should stay in the sand pit, its too dangerous out in the real world. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrZoos Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Some people should stay in the sand pit, its too dangerous out in the real world. Some people shouldn't be allowed near a sand pit that has children if they dont understand the responsibilities and legalities that are attached...these are not adults and we as adults are completely and totally responsible for their life when it comes to aviation... this is not a case of skinning a knee..if a 15 year old crashes a plane there is a reasonable chance they may actually die or kill others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank marriott Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 So are you suggesting the magic 17 yrs, or just taking a Hood type attitude to responsibility ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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