Accident Tyagarah Air Strip NSW

[slb]

We all love flying, chill out guys......we're all on the same team!

Well said, Butch

 

Maybe there should be a Weightshift smiley as well ??

 

 

[Butch]

Maybe there should be a Weightshift smiley as well ??

747......Tiger Moth.......Trike ......they all go through the same air.

 

I agree 100%

 

 

[skeptic36]

Turbo, dont know you personally but i think it shuts them all up with their non compliance re weight and balance etc.

Your right Asmol, I have been proven wrong in what I said with regard to there being nothing in the weightshift training syllabus re weight and balance calculations.

To correct that statement, I will say there was nothing in the HGFA training syllabus as at March 08 ( that work book was first issued May 97). I can't find anything on the HGFA site as to its currency now.

 

I have a BFR coming up next month, I will ask the question then about whether or not I need to be filling out a form re weight and balance before I fly. I will report back here with the answer.

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[slb]

To correct that statement, I will say there was nothing in the HGFA training syllabus as at March 08 ( that work book was first issued May 97). I can't find anything on the HGFA site as to its currency now.

Nothing in the HGFA 2015 Workbook ....

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Your right Asmol, I have been proven wrong in what I said with regard to there being nothing in the weightshift training syllabus re weight and balance calculations.To correct that statement, I will say there was nothing in the HGFA training syllabus as at March 08 ( that work book was first issued May 97). I can't find anything on the HGFA site as to its currency now.

I have a BFR coming up next month, I will ask the question then about whether or not I need to be filling out a form re weight and balance before I fly. I will report back here with the answer.

 

Regards Bill

Nowhere is there a requirement to fill out a weight and balance form for every private flight. You have to calculate weight and balance. If you have calculated that your aircraft is within weight and balance with yourself and full fuel, solo and with an 80kg passenger (or whatever) and also with zero fuel, then every flight after this within that criteria has been calculated. If someone asks, tell them that. If they want proof that it works then do the calculation again, or keep your old calculation in your flight manual.

 

 

[kasper]

[ATTACH=full]36544[/ATTACH]

Despite this there is no such valid calculation of W&B for a weightshift. Indeed I am afraid this is another example of unknowing poor drafting on the part of the Ops manager as we moved from Ops 6 to Ops 7.

Look at the old Ops 6 and the the combined requirement covered the exception for weightshift with two simple words 'if applicable';

 

"1.1 Complete pre and post flight administration.

 

• Pre-flight planning and documentation is completed in accordance with regulations and/or operations manual.

 

• Aeroplane take-off and landing performance is calculated in accordance with performance and weight and balance charts if applicable."

 

Now when they separate the syllabus into parts for control groups in Ops 7 we lose the two critical words that used to cover weightshift ... the Ops manual is NEVER released for review to the membership or critically the CFIs and we end up with a syllabus that is patently inappropriate to ALL who learned to fly the weightshift and/or teach in them.

 

I hazard a guess that the Ops manager is not a weightshift pilot and the inclusion was either by her in error or at the insistence of someone in CASA equally uninformed and without review from informed and knowing eyes we have an Ops Manual that in next review one hopes is corrected.

 

And to preempt any individual posters having a go at me grasping at straws now saying its just a drafting error do a search on my posts about the quality and inconsistency within Ops 7 drafting - its basically very poor with literally dozens of inconsistencies and errors scattered throughout. You may also find through my posts the despair I feel at the coming Tech Manual which equally is being finalized without consultation and review by members and in fact the first section of the new Tech released was so fatally flawed in relation to actual operations the tech manager had to write to CASA and get the section changed to make it actually work!!

 

 

[turboplanner]

Nowhere is there a requirement to fill out a weight and balance form for every private flight. You have to calculate weight and balance. If you have calculated that your aircraft is within weight and balance with yourself and full fuel, solo and with an 80kg passenger (or whatever) and also with zero fuel, then every flight after this within that criteria has been calculated. If someone asks, tell them that. If they want proof that it works then do the calculation again, or keep your old calculation in your flight manual.

Yes, if you are doing a similar flight regularly, if you do it once and use it again, it was still done before the flight.

Incidentally, I just did two calcs based on the POH I quoted previously, both with full fuel.

 

The first one was a 95 kg pilot only and took seven seconds to do without a calculator, including writing it on my proforma.

 

The second one was 95 kg pilot, 80 kg pax which took nine seconds.

 

Why anyone would be whining about this process eludes me.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Undergrounded, you gave my post #105 a 'creative'. If you've got something to say about it I'd love to hear it.

 

 

[skeptic36]

Yes, if you are doing a similar flight regularly, if you do it once and use it again, it was still done before the flight.Incidentally, I just did two calcs based on the POH I quoted previously, both with full fuel.

 

The first one was a 95 kg pilot only and took seven seconds to do without a calculator, including writing it on my proforma.

 

The second one was 95 kg pilot, 80 kg pax which took nine seconds.

 

Why anyone would be whining about this process eludes me.

Has somebody whined about it?

If somebody shows me that it is either relevant to my aircraft or a legal requirement as a HGFA pilot, I'll be happy to do it.

 

As I said, I will ask some questions in the next month and report what I find out.

 

 

[Ungrounded]

Undergrounded, you gave my post #105 a 'creative'. If you've got something to say about it I'd love to hear it.

Hi there Happy. Entirely accidental I'm afraid. The ever present danger of surfing with a touch-screen tablet. A literal case of finger trouble.

 

 

[Kiwi303]

The ever present danger of surfing with a touch-screen tablet. A literal case of finger trouble.

You should see my mother try to read a PDF with Adobe Reader on a 7" tablet!

 

She keeps her finger on the screen and it thinks she's resizing or reorientating it, some people just can't understand WHY technology is so HARD. She just can't get her head around "Take your finger off the screen after stroking up to scroll down" just leaving it sitting there and the tablet goes nuts.

 

Old Dogs, New Tricks comes to mind.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Despite this there is no such valid calculation of W&B for a weightshift. Indeed I am afraid this is another example of unknowing poor drafting on the part of the Ops manager as we moved from Ops 6 to Ops 7.Look at the old Ops 6 and the the combined requirement covered the exception for weightshift with two simple words 'if applicable';

(a) It is always applicable if the POH specifies any minimum or maximum weights.*

 

(b) RAA is simply matching CAR 235, which doesn't give RAA, HGFA, or the pilot any discretion.

 

*The Airborne Edge XT912 Streak/Cruze for example says in 2.6.9 "Minimum Pilot Weight. The microlight aircraft must only be flown solo from the front seat. Minimum pilot weight flown solo shall not be below 55 kg. Maximum power at minimum TOW can cause an abrupt climb rate that, if uncorrected, may cause a wing attitude of greater than the placarded maximum of 45 degrees."

 

This would be a critical calculation factor if for example a teenage pilot was about to solo.

 

 

[skeptic36]

(a) It is always applicable if the POH specifies any minimum or maximum weights.*(b) RAA is simply matching CAR 235, which doesn't give RAA, HGFA, or the pilot any discretion.

*The Airborne Edge XT912 Streak/Cruze for example says in 2.6.9 "Minimum Pilot Weight. The microlight aircraft must only be flown solo from the front seat. Minimum pilot weight flown solo shall not be below 55 kg. Maximum power at minimum TOW can cause an abrupt climb rate that, if uncorrected, may cause a wing attitude of greater than the placarded maximum of 45 degrees."

 

This would be a critical calculation factor if for example a teenage pilot was about to solo.

Turbo,

I have never seen one of these weight and balance calculations, so could you tell me what you would be expected to write on such a form.

 

I.e I have weighed the pilot, he's 56 kg and he is sitting in the front seat iaw the poh instructions

 

How else could you put it?

 

Where does the calculator come in to it?

 

 

[turboplanner]

The way the XT 912 chart reads, the execrcise is: (red = your input figure)

 

Base Suspension Range: < 1245 mm

 

Empty Weight: 223 kg

 

Pilot: 92 kg does not exceed 100 kg, exceeds 55 kg

 

Passenger: 70 kg does not exceed 100 kg

 

Crew: 185 kg does not exceed 200 kg

 

Underseat Storage: 4 kg does not exceed max

 

Usable Fuel: 67 litres x 0.8271: 54 kg

 

Take off Weight: 444 kg

 

Maximum T.O. Weight: 450 kg

 

Result: COMPLIES

 

Part of your P&O calculations as Facthunter alluded to include fuel burn for the flight, altitude and length of landing strip, met, 45 mins reserve, and from these you set the minimum fuel for the flight. I've just given it a full tank.

 

If the calculated take off weight exceeds the MTOW you have to start ditching items. If you need to reduce fuel, you refer to the fuel calculator (Airborne shown , which people will recognise as a classic balance envelope.

 

If you want to carry spare fuel and camping gear, you can't just use the rear seat cushion area, floor in front of the rear seat. You have to get the passenger body CoG point from the manufacturer then back calculate your load, which may be well short of 100 kg. You will learn how to do this in W&B training.

 

 

 

[skeptic36]

Thanks.

 

Do you mind if I print that off for use in discussion with the CFI?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Thanks.Do you mind if I print that off for use in discussion with the CFI?

No that's fine.

 

 

[Guernsey]

Are you referring to us pilots or our aircraft

Pilots. .

 

 

[alf jessup]

Richard & Peter stuck in Cobar, fog all morning then solid overcast at 300 ft.

 

Poor blokes are busting their gut to get home after this accident but are making great decisions.

 

Alf

 

 

[kasper]

The way the XT 912 chart reads, the execrcise is: (red = your input figure)Base Suspension Range: < 1245 mm

 

Empty Weight: 223 kg

 

Pilot: 92 kg does not exceed 100 kg, exceeds 55 kg

 

Passenger: 70 kg does not exceed 100 kg

 

Crew: 185 kg does not exceed 200 kg

 

Underseat Storage: 4 kg does not exceed max

 

Usable Fuel: 67 litres x 0.8271: 54 kg

 

Take off Weight: 444 kg

 

Maximum T.O. Weight: 450 kg

 

Result: COMPLIES

 

Part of your P&O calculations as Facthunter alluded to include fuel burn for the flight, altitude and length of landing strip, met, 45 mins reserve, and from these you set the minimum fuel for the flight. I've just given it a full tank.

 

If the calculated take off weight exceeds the MTOW you have to start ditching items. If you need to reduce fuel, you refer to the fuel calculator (Airborne shown , which people will recognise as a classic balance envelope.

 

If you want to carry spare fuel and camping gear, you can't just use the rear seat cushion area, floor in front of the rear seat. You have to get the passenger body CoG point from the manufacturer then back calculate your load, which may be well short of 100 kg. You will learn how to do this in W&B training.

 

[ATTACH=full]36558[/ATTACH]

OK I am having one last go at this - everything you are looking at in the XT912 notes is a load schedule. IE weight. Now at the end of this you come up with MTOW< allowable MTOW ... every post i Ihave made states that you are only concerned with weight calcs for weighshift ... any now you just come up with a weight calc as PROOF of a weight and balance requirement. And to be very clear - the fuel calcululator is a pure payload of people trade off for pilot or passenger or underseat load - if it were a true W&B each of these would have a different station and the trade off would not be a 1-to-1 trade as the moment of 1kg of pilot would not equal the moment of 1 kg of passenger (not side by side seating here) or 1kg of underseat.

Load int he XT912 is not station dependant and all areas of load are just loads, ie just weight.

 

Now Turbs, tell me the CofG station of this 'W&B' calc in accord with the XT912 requirements ie what is the MM/CM/inches from dataum for this calc?

 

If you can give me this information then I will gladly print out a copy of either the RAA Tech or Ops manual at your choice and eat it.

 

Can't say fairer than that can I?

 

Oh and if you can't will you PLEASE accept that there is NOT a weight and balance calc for weightshift.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Forget it Kasper, we're doing nicely thanks.

 

 

[kasper]

Forget it Kasper, we're doing nicely thanks.

Not a problem. Not sure which 'we' you are part of that is doing fine But from the RAA weightshift group certificate holders and the HGFA microlight pilots and the UK PPL and PPL(M) pilots with weightshift endorsement WE are doing fine calculating legal and safe flight based on the MTOW weight limits without knowing or caring about the stations or calculating the CofG at any of the infinitely variable locations it is during out flying.

Please forgive me but you are now no.1 on the list of members I am using the forum function of 'ignore' on.

 

 

[rankamateur]

you are now no.1 on the list of members I am using the forum function of 'ignore' on.

I have never used the "ignore" function! Most pests are only annoying for a little while then they get sick of it. Next thing you know they post something intelligent and using the ignore function you would miss that and never find out they weren't so annoying after all. Case in point FT.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Never mind, I'm happy to be on the ignore list of anyone who looks at a balance chart. and doesn't realise it is the product of someone who carried out distribution calculations to achieve the numbers.

 

While I'm on his ignore list attached is some basic W&B information I wrote for this forum in 2010 (for fixed wing aircraft). At that time there was very little information on RA aircraft and what was there was very difficult to use, so I came up with a mythical RA aircraft to talk about the basics. This formed a part of a bigger project to do the whole Performance and Operations subject in a series of chapters on this forum. The late Decca from this site, who was in the final stages of cancer, and who had been an airline Flight Engineer collaborated on some of the subjects, but we found right from the start that a forum just didn't work because of the Thread Drift - before you could answer a question, six posters would jump in on unrelated subjects, so we scrapped it after the first introductory chapter.

 

Note particularly, the very basics of the balance beam - the mathematic relationship between mass and distance. So simple, yet a bit like the computer IO, so difficult to grasp for many people.

 

A motor vehicle is the beam upside down.

 

A trike is suspended from the beam in positive G, pushing the beam in negative G, and has it's own subset beam (the pod in suspension.

 

The W&B information also shows a number of reasons for the calculation. You might need to cut back on fuel to achieve weight or balance, you might need full fuel, so have to cut back on baggage etc.

 

WX012.pdf

 

WX012.pdf

 

WX012.pdf

[kasper]

I have never used the "ignore" function! Most pests are only annoying for a little while then they get sick of it. Next thing you know they post something intelligent and using the ignore function you would miss that and never find out they weren't so annoying after all. Case in point FT.

Appreciate that and in 5 years on this forum I have not felt the need to ignore until now.

The facts as I see them on this thread on this poster are that the requirements on flight notes etc were factually wrong and required several posters several attempts to get his to stop insisting and on weightshift basic and fundamental operations he is fundamentally wrong but more irritating appears both unaware and unwilling to accept that he is wrong.

 

If it were just me I would take a good look at my understanding and beliefs but his position of intransigence comes against multiple posters with actual knowledge on the subject from multiple training backgrounds (RAA, HGFA and UK PPL(M)) well in excess of his knowledge and training as exemplified by his posts and insistence,

 

My decision to ignore is not one I take lightly but the risk that he may have a future post that is of interest to me balanced against the actual and continued irritation is such that I am prepared to miss something of interest from him in the knowledge that I will not be irritated by demonstrated behaviors.

 

 

[slb]

From the FAA Weightshift Control Aircraft Flying Handbook:

 

Weight and Loading

 

Weight and loading must be considered before each flight.

 

Do not exceed the maximum gross weight as specified in the pilot’s operating handbook (POH). The balance of the pilot, passenger, fuel, and baggage is usually not an issue, but must be reviewed in the POH for the specific make/model since some may have balance limitations. The fore and aft carriage attachment to the wing hang point must be within the limits as specified in the POH for weight and loading of the carriage.

 

Always follow the POH performance limitations.

 

From the ©AirBorne WindSports Pty. Ltd.: PILOT HANDBOOK - EDGE SERIES MICROLIGHTS

 

5 WEIGHT and BALANCE

 

This aircraft must only be flown solo from the front seat. No ballast is required if the pilot weight is above 65 kg. If the pilot weight is below 65 kg it may be necessary to carry ballast in water bags. Ensure the bags are watertight and safely secured in flight.

 

All aircraft operations may be carried out whilst solo, as when the aircraft is flown dual. With lighter aircraft AUW the full-power setting may have to be reduced to get a safe climb angle after lift off.

 

The wings have three attachment points on the universal bracket. The forward setting will increase the trim speed and the aft setting will decrease trim speed.

 

The variation of attachment point has been designed to allow the pilot to pre-select the centre of gravity position prior to flight.

 

Under normal operations the trike base should be attached to the wing in the middle position. The rearward trim position must be used with MTOW of 340kg or less. In flight the only noticeable difference is the control bar pitch pressure, which increases as the hang point is moved rearward.

 

The fuel capacity must always be considered when measuring the AUW of the aircraft. Remember that fuel is measured at 0.7 kg per litre and may slightly alter the aircraft’s performance during take off and landing.

 

You have to fly iaw the Manufacturer's Pilot Operating Handbook for the aircraft you fly.

 

Weighshift Aircraft may have a choice of hang-points although, as stated above, the middle position is normally used. In training you are advised not to move this position and later, only if you know what you are doing. Nevertheless, the CoG is self-correcting.... and all we have to calculate is AUW.

 

Note: the specific weight of fuel is more correct in this manual