Happyflyer Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2015/aair/ae-2015-068.aspx 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 That's an LSA, not good for Jabiru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ungrounded Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Don't leap to any conclusions yet. Been reading Google translations of German aviators like us discussing the crash. Authorities not yet sure if it was an in-flight break up or if the aircraft crashed into high trees before decending. Wreckage over a wide area. Weather was very overcast and there appears to be some talk about a possible VFR into IMC event by pilot untrained for instrument flight. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyflyer Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 Don't leap to any conclusions yet. Been reading Google translations of German aviators like us discussing the crash. Authorities not yet sure if it was an in-flight break up or if the aircraft crashed into high trees before decending. Wreckage over a wide area. Weather was very overcast and there appears to be some talk about a possible VFR into IMC event by pilot untrained for instrument flight. Some one in authority was sure at some stage that it was an inflight break up judging by this statement on the ATSB web page. "On 23 June 2015 at 1846 Coordinated Universal Time (UTC), a Jabiru J 430 aircraft, registered F-PFAJ, sustained an in-flight breakup near Holzminden, Germany. The two occupants, a pilot and passenger, were fatally injured." It would be rare for crash investigators to call it an inflight break up like that without some compelling evidence, or something was lost in the translation from German. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdseye Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Should be easy to determine by the existence or otherwise of strike marks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Not LSA FT Homebuilt experimental 4 seat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 according to the news articles, search helicopters had to turn back due to bad weather Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montymagic Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 I'm led to believe that all ultralights in Germany had to have a ballistic parachute. If that's the case why didn't they deploy it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEM Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Here is a translation from a German newspaper (The Westfalen-Blatt 4/7/2015) This posted with condolences to the families and all involved. This newspaper has crash photos but I did not upload. Crashed plane near Holzminden:two dead Located in the Solling Hochwald at the 90-Seelenort mill mountain near Holzmindena nairplane is nearing on Tuesday 21: 00(Jabiru J430F-PFAJ private) crashed. Two men were killed. The wreck is located forest and is only accessible by foot after a long climb. By Michael Robrecht Holzminden(WB). A small plane crashed on Tuesday evening in Holzminden, in Lower Saxony, Germany. It came both occupants killed. According to police, the cause of the crash near the border with North Rhine-Westphalia is still completely unclear.Experts of the Federal Bureau of aircraft accidents investigation from Braunschweig (BFU)are local and have recorded in the night of Wednesday the investigations in the inaccessible terrain of the Solling. The plane crashed Tuesday evening shortly before 9: 00 in the forest near Mill Hill (90 inhabitants suburb) southeast of Holzminden. Citizens heard a bang and saw flying debris. Aircraft parts are been-thrown up on the adjacent main road even in my garden 497 direction of Neuhaus, said Mayor Gerdbatthe WESTFALEN journal Wednesday afternoon. Rescue workers were the first after a while on the ground in the middle of the forest of spruce high,but they help no longer could the inmates. The identity of the dead is still unknown The two dead men are who and where they are exactly, is still unknown.The plane of the type Jabiru J430 F-PFAJ was private on his way from Dinslaken for Saxony-Anhalt, found employees of the BFU. The plane is a single-engine sport aircraft. More details on the Flugzeugsbsturz will be announced in the course of the afternoon. Rescue workers reported that it has an hour it took until forces could bring the bodies of the victim at all after the crash. So far, it is unclear why the machine in rainy weather and fog crashed.Apparently she has scratched several tree tops on the Solling dörfchen between Holzminden and Neuhaus. Preliminary findings according to it should be when the single-engine propeller plane to a machine from France, announced the police. The Federal Bureau of aircraft accidents investigation(BFU) from Braunschweig reported that the aircraft had a French ID.But it is not known whether it also launched.Höxter and Holzminden aerodrome and airfield Hildesheim the unhappiness machine does not belong there was on request. The cause of the crash is equally unclear. Experts are currently investigating how the plane has touched tree tops before his crash. Search helicopters had to turn back due to bad weather At the time of the accident, weather so bad and diesiges ruled that even a search helicopter had to turn off. Also a further helicopter from Hesse abandoned his approach after mill mountain, it was said in the evening. Only a few special vehicles of the Fire Department could arrive at the site of the accident.The forest floor was strongly softened by the rain. It is already the second plane crash in the Weserbergland within a few weeks. Until the beginning of may a 67 pilot from Schleswig-Holstein to life was killed in bath (Hamelin Pyrmont) Münderam Deister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Translation. CFIT due to poor visibility & bad weather. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 I'm led to believe that all ultralights in Germany had to have a ballistic parachute. If that's the case why didn't they deploy it? Because a Jabiru 4 place is not an Ultralight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 There are plenty of situations where it won't help. Hitting something solid at flying speed can injure you. Nev 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaba-who Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Because a Jabiru 4 place is not an Ultralight. And maybe because it is not a German plane. F is the designator of French registered aircraft. And that jabiru have said that the airframe is not structurally tested ( so maybe not actually safe ) to install a BRS. I spoke to Jabiru about installing one and they said they hadn't tested or maybe had but couldn't advise on how to do it( I forget which). Maybe even if the rules say you have to have one there may be exemptions for an aircraft that is not suitable to have one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red750 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 With due respect to the victims, and the seriousness of the accident, a thread diversion. It is now clear from the above translation that Yoda (Star Wars) learned his grammar in German. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 A lot of it does suffer in translation, if each word is done literally. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaba-who Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 With due respect to the victims, and the seriousness of the accident, a thread diversion. It is now clear from the above translation that Yoda (Star Wars) learned his grammar in German. Nope. Japanese. i don't speak German and it seems a little like Yoda-speak but i do speak japanese and used to be a star wars fan in my youth. I Remember reading way back that they purposely ( for what reason I don't recall) made him speak in japanese sentence structure. As did they give JaJa Binks Jamaican grammar. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchroll Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Language translation software doesn't handle German grammar very well, or the famous German compound-nouns. But I don't want to create a Leserkommentarspaltenhöllenlärm here (all hell breaking loose in the comment thread). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyflyer Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 Translation. CFIT due to poor visibility & bad weather. Or inflight break up caused by losing control after flying into IMC. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Curiously, the only previous possible in-flight structural problem for a Jabiru was also to a French-registered 2XX airframe. I have not seen the final report on that one, but it appeared that a lightning strike blowing up the petrol in one wing was touted as a real possibility. Whilstever Recreational Aviation aircraft do not have some form of 'black box' - and even a data-recording EFIS would provide a fair amount of that capability - some accidents are going to remain inexplicable. If we embrace the economics of flying Recreational, then we also de facto accept the limitations on information and control of the risk factors. We should take every opportunity to improve our understanding of risks - but we cannot have BOTH of the maximum level of protection available by the use of technology and regulations AND the low-cost, hassle-free enjoyment of an activity we wish to engage in. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchroll Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Whether the aircraft broke up in flight or was intact until it hit a hill is a fundamental question that any competent accident investigators can answer with a very high degree of certainty, based only on the wreckage examination. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Whether the aircraft broke up in flight or was intact until it hit a hill is a fundamental question that any competent accident investigators can answer with a very high degree of certainty, based only on the wreckage examination. and while any investigator worth his money will work to get the answer to that question, for us recreational pilots its a moot question, given the reported weather at the time, and the unwillingness of professional rescue aviators, presumably will skills far in excess of VFR, to go where the Jab had gone....that imho is telling! Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Inflight breakups are fairly easy to discover as there are usually bits left along the final track...sounds like this is forested area so if those bits are there they may be almost impossible to find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic36 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 So you're flying along in the cloud, the terrain below is quite steep and all of a sudden a tree jumps up in front of you, you bank away sharply, but too late, the tree rips a wing strut out. Now you have plenty of terrain clearance but one wing falls off, then some other bits and then ...... I should have been an investigator. Or a story teller....... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Maybe a story teller...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 and while any investigator worth his money will work to get the answer to that question, for us recreational pilots its a moot question, given the reported weather at the time, and the unwillingness of professional rescue aviators, presumably will skills far in excess of VFR, to go where the Jab had gone....that imho is telling!Andy It IS telling Andy, .I agree with your comment, most rescue helicopter pilots don't really want to fly in IMC, and with Helimed flights they and ONLY they have the sanction. I know half a dozen ex military jocks who fly air ambulance duties nowadays who simply won't fly marginal IMC even though they, and the machines they fly are quite capable of it. Yes, the untrained masses could argue that,. . ."If those bloody rescuers had got off their ar$e earlier, someone may have survived. . . ." rubbish. That is the main difference between professional rescuers and the people who do the "Chancing" in crap weather conditions and then fly into a cloud full of rocks and bloody trees. Sometimes, normally sensible pilots will allow themselves, sometimes by small apparently innocuous increments, into a situation which rapidly becomes non-recoverable, given the equipment carried, coupled with the inexperience of the person in command, and I have to say here, that ( when I woz a young buck. . . .) there but for the grace of good fortune go I. . . . .etc. I must add that I mean no disrespect to anyone who has succumbed to this fate. . . . been happening for decades. . .and it will quite regrettably probably continue, according to the statistics anyway. Phil 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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