facthunter Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Flying is something quite different to most things. I've only done it when I had a reason. Ie Learning or instructing or going somewhere carrying people or Cargo. (Hopefully getting paid That's the best. Getting paid to do what you would pay to do)) That's been the way all my life. I've done a bit of solo cross country but don't particularly enjoy it (Usually when ferrying something). I'd just as soon have someone along for company, and fill the spare seats. My wife filled that role quite well in the Citabria and I'd involve her in the planning and she got involved in the navigating too. She would never fly an ultralight and she has never wanted to fly with anyone other than me. I won't build a plane on my own . It's too lonely. I'd rather work with a group. There's more sharing of information and time saving. Flying to places as a group can work fine too. I'd consider a single place plane but it would have to be something of historical interest, again with a group involvement but not flying long distances solo alone. An involvement with people is essential, and it has to work. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litespeed Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 I am not so sure about the young and flying. I know a few pimply ones and they are interested, when given the info and opportunities for social and fun. A lot will spend a lot on trips, car mods, jetski's boats etc and motorbikes. A lot is about the social side and doing something out of the norm. They will spend $500 on indoor skydiving or a hell of lot more jumping from a actual aircraft. They will spend $300 plus on a good night out, up to $1000 to travel and party at a festival. They will spend $100- $200 on the gym and supplements a week to look fit and socialise over roids. They will buy a baby harley for $15,000 just to go with mates on a ride- they hardly ever ride. It is often about been in the group- to be part o the tribe. I do not think they are not open to the idea- just do not know and think it is a richs mans sport. Compared to what many spend -it is not, just start on the cheap end. Many pay more for their insurance on a flash car than the cost of flight training. It is all about context. My son who is 21 will next year learn with me in gliders- let the fun begin (he is 6'5" and still growing, so size is a issue) . I hope to attract some other fledglings at the same time. If we had 1:1000 young guys attracted that would be a heap. We should be targeting young women a lot more- they are out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hargraves Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 The differance is obviously where you start off from I think Nev, that would obviously greatly influence how we would view the sport ,vis a vis coming down from comercial flying to just rec flying would be nothing like someone just interested in rec flying full stop with no interest or intension of going any further and I can understand your good wife for not wanting to fly in another bird after backseating in the lounge room of a citabria, i don,t know of a more roomy better twoseater for the navagator than those eh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 I don't see it as "coming down' from commercial flying, personally. and very basic planes don't bother me at all. I luv them. You might have noticed I don't believe in over instrumenting the cockpit and believe in cheap and safe basic flying, to be and remain available. U/L's require as much( or even more) skill than GA planes to manage particularly in gusty conditions and they may have design quirks that wouldn't be permitted in "certified" models. When you own your own plane you control the quality of it's servicing and fly when and where YOU want to. That's a pretty special aspect of it and a privilege. AS far as complex and large stuff, you get trained to whatever aspect of flying you end up in at the time. I added up the cost of all the training I had done some years ago and it was a staggering figure. I personally spent a sum equal to about 1/2 a modest house. Others spent much more on me. It's a good thing you don't have to do that these days to get something worthwhile. A plane is a plane etc. The similarities of 3 axis planes are greater than their differences.. Spending a lot of dollars is OK if you have them can justify the cost and really want what you think you might want. An expensive complex aeroplane is (I would suggest ) a thing no sane person would wish upon themselves to be involved with, unless it had a job to do in a commercial sense, and you were in that position. If you are not careful it's one of the most rapid ways to get rid of vast amounts of money in a very short time. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hargraves Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 I think your right Nev, I have heard more than one rpt jet pilot refer to u/l flying as real flying. And my own very limited experience has been that cost is not necessarily related to how much fun and how enjoyable an aircraft is to fly, some are just delightful and a pleasure in their own way, by simple ergonomic design coupled with how you feel the aircraft fly from the pilots position. Been an interesting chat sir. cheers Hargraves 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litespeed Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 The best fun is always in the light stuff- fast response, you can feel the air, everything is alive...............................................unlike driving a bus in the air. It is not all about speed but sheer flying pleasure. Hence my like of the new Belite Pipper. If he can meet that price- it could be game changer. The cost of alloy honeycomb has fallen heaps due to chinese production for building facias, caravans etc. Add in CNC and we have a very strong, light airframe and fast to build. What in the past was out of reach money wise is now in play.The use of honeycomb panels and cnc matched holed gussets can make a extremely strong and lightweight structure, esp when combined with the alloy skin he uses. Bugger paint- polish the beast save money and weight. I know we have to wait but James is doing a great job and uses the best available tech to meet his needs and price point. His previous designs were great but now the shackles of part 105 are cast aside, a real two seater can emerge, and still cheap. Actually can be as cheap as the single seater- low weight costs strength and money. Could it be done for $14k ? If you are resourceful and 2nd hand engine, use James instruments etc. Sure. But I would budget more, around $20K max and have a low hr Jabiru- should be ok weight wise if careful. Add in some arduino powered tablets as a glass screens and you have a wizz bang little fun machine for the playstation generation. Sounds viable to me 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 The differance is obviously where you start off from I think Nev, that would obviously greatly influence how we would view the sport ,vis a vis coming down from comercial flying to just rec flying would be nothing like someone just interested in rec flying full stop with no interest or intension of going any further and I can understand your good wife for not wanting to fly in another bird after backseating in the lounge room of a citabria, i don,t know of a more roomy better twoseater for the navagator than those eh. Have not had the pleasure of flying a Citabria BUT. . .my time in the Bellanca Decathlon showed that my Girlfriend ( wifey won't fly with me and never has ) got fed up with two things, 1) only being able to view the rear of my handsome head and even worse. . . 2) Got really fed up when I flew several NM whilst inverted. . . . .She reckoned it was hard to hang on to her handbag, keep her feet on the floor and her hair in place. . . . .Women ! . . . .tsk. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 I don't see it as "coming down' from commercial flying, personally. and very basic planes don't bother me at all. I luv them. You might have noticed I don't believe in over instrumenting the cockpit and believe in cheap and safe basic flying, to be and remain available.U/L's require as much( or even more) skill than GA planes to manage particularly in gusty conditions and they may have design quirks that wouldn't be permitted in "certified" models. When you own your own plane you control the quality of it's servicing and fly when and where YOU want to. That's a pretty special aspect of it and a privilege. AS far as complex and large stuff, you get trained to whatever aspect of flying you end up in at the time. I added up the cost of all the training I had done some years ago and it was a staggering figure. I personally spent a sum equal to about 1/2 a modest house. Others spent much more on me. It's a good thing you don't have to do that these days to get something worthwhile. A plane is a plane etc. The similarities of 3 axis planes are greater than their differences.. Spending a lot of dollars is OK if you have them can justify the cost and really want what you think you might want. An expensive complex aeroplane is (I would suggest ) a thing no sane person would wish upon themselves to be involved with, unless it had a job to do in a commercial sense, and you were in that position. If you are not careful it's one of the most rapid ways to get rid of vast amounts of money in a very short time. Nev Very true Nev. I have a friend 'Darn Sarf' who operated a Learjet, ( if he still has it ) He was, at the time I flew with him, a very wealthy man, his wealth coming from many years involvement in the mining and heavy building construction industry in South Africa. He regaled me with stories about the downright annoyance, ( not neccesarily the cost - although I've no doubt that this would have been Considerable ! ) of all the revals, paperwork, regulations, checks, maintenance periods etc, relating to the operation of said machine in the UK, including the requirement to employ a qualified first officer for IFR operations in certain countries where single pilot ops were no longer allowed on jets which was at the time, purely used for private jollies to his ranch in Portugal with family and friends. . . I will have to contact him again and see if he still 'Plays' with aircraft like this. . He also owned a couple of light piston types, incl a Pitts S2S . . . ( Wouldn't it be wonderful to have so much money that it didn't matter ?. . .we can dream I guess. . .) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 I forgot to ask,. . . is Single pilot Commercial IFR allowed in Australia as a rule,. . . ? Since it appears that the Kingair which crashed at Essendon had one pilot ( apparently ) I can only assume that this is the case. . . . My friend Dave used to fly IFR / Night cargo from UK to Frnkfurt on a regular basis, for hour building, and he did this as the solo crew. BUT. . .this was back in the late 1980s. . . ( He is now a captain on A320 'ish thingies for a British Tour airline ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Single pilot IFR is common on this type of aircraft. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben87r Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Phil, under 5700kg with 9 pax or less are the general rules for single pilot. Quire a few exceptions tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfly Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Litespeed said (in #106, above): "I know we have to wait but James is doing a great job and uses the best available tech to meet his needs and price point. His previous designs were great but now the shackles of part 105 are cast aside, a real two seater can emerge, and still cheap. Actually can be as cheap as the single seater- low weight costs strength and money." Here he is explaining his design philosophy for his single seat models (pre-Pipper): 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkyMarkOZ Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Wow. Clearly a subject of high interest. 111 comments in 9 days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Wow. Clearly a subject of high interest. 111 comments in 9 days. Sure, but which subject ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Young people are put off by the perception that small planes are dangerous. There are very regular press reports, in breathless detail, about aircraft accidents. By comparison, reports of sky-diving, jet-ski or rock climbing accidents are very rare and seen to be exceptions. Not that the accidents are covered in less detail, just that they happen only every year or two whereas the aircraft accidents happen every month or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 My nieces and nephews have no interest in doing any flying that doesn't take them interstate or overseas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 The simple fact is, like many things in the wrong hands,small planes are dangerous and in my opinion, there`s no benefit in trying to deny it, but I very much doubt that is the reason, young people are put off! Frank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmick Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 I think the age gap is too large recreationally. Only young 3-axis students I see have a career in mind. Flying with oldies is not that attractive to them. Face it if we are doing a trip to the Rock we have to plan stops for our Bladders not necessarily fuel. Most young flyers look to Hang Gliding and Para-Gliding for our shared thrill. They will most likely migrate to 3-axis later in life. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hargraves Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Yes Box their was a good bit of cross wind drift on this one but all good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Yes Box their was a good bit of cross wind drift on this one but all good You speaking to my brother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hargraves Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Sorry bex my typo cheers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmick Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Yes Box their was a good bit of cross wind drift on this one but all good Had me guessing there Mick, thought ya might have been slightly concussed from a heavy load on your 454's. I think only a minor drift but relevant as all about affordability. Now popularity, PG and PPG very popular as cheap, Hang Gliding well many here started that way, last year saw 80 of em lots of them kids towed up for a comp at Dalby. If something cheap and green were to become available in 3-axis might see more interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hargraves Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 I,m sure theirs interest their amongst the younger set Mike, we just had a young lady first solo in the gliding club last week. Their may well be a percieved elitist stigma attached to our sport, that would put some off, that is,nt really their, in most of the raa pilots i,ve met anyway, and also the age of most of us raa pilots means were flying our own aircraft (at last) and that is our main priority, understandably, leaving time for enlistment projects a poor second. And the beauracratic process involved an even poorer third. Reducing the cost via this inovation would be a good way to get started but i,m not sure i could get used to the quite eh. Cheers mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfly Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hargraves Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 That belite two seat inovation has enormous potential Garfly and a material that iv,e often thought would give carbon fiber a run for its money (literally) Imagine the posibilities if the material manufacturer came on line and offered the product in fuse and flying surfaces contured shape with its inherently stronger section when curved and radiused not to mention austetic appeal, the only caviate I wonder about is it limited or one way securing abillity due to the open core ends resulting from each cut and the cross securing through the section in relation to riveting as a result. Cheers Hargraves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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