fly_tornado Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 *380 pound empty weight (with 2 stroke engine and normal instrumentation)*430 pound empty weight (with 4 stroke engine) It sounds like its going to be very fragile. and only 400lbs usable load? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfly Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Yeah, practicability might come down to engine choice. Interesting to read Wiebe's pro and con analysis of the target engines. He comes down on the side of the Polini Thor: "So is this the best ultralight engine ever? Well, I haven’t flown behind everything, and I’d still love to fly behind a wankel someday… but it is clearly the best engine we’ve found for our aircraft. Caveat: Belite is a dealer for Polini." On the other hand the Thor is underpowered for a two place and requires a lowered gross weight. THOR 250 Polini Thor 250 Engine Review — The best ultralight engine we’ve seen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litespeed Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 It sounds like its going to be very fragile.and only 400lbs usable load? Huh? The usable load at 850lbs is 470lbs with a 2 stroke and 420lbs with a 4 stroke. Two average healthy blokes at 180 lbs leaves at least 60 lbs for fuel for a 4 stroke and 110lbs for a two stroke. That should be sufficient for bladder range. Given the structure is alloy honeycomb and then metalised, it should be plenty strong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Would you buy one? I've always thought his planes looked a bit flimsy. looking at my tornado, empty weight is 530lbs with a 503, you are taking 150lbs of out of the airframe. seems like a lot to me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfly Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I really wouldn't know ... but I see that James Weibe is pretty proud of Belite crashability in the first minute of this (weirdly purple) video by Dan Johnson. (otherwise about their instrument range) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 that's what I mean, the aircraft looks like a writeoff but its hard to assess how hard it hit the ground. Those foam ribs on the wingtips look like a magnet for hangar rash. Would you buy one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDQDI Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 After seeing that bent frame I think I would prefer the extra weight/cost of a chromoly cockpit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfly Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 If I was in the market for a low-cost, quick-build, 2-place kit I'd certainly consider it. And if anything were to give me pause, I reckon it'd be range/payload more than strength. Especially fitted with a thirsty 582. I notice that he found a second hand HKS700e for his own build. I wonder what kind of mileage that'd give. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 The way I see it is this! The majority of RA-Aus pilots are around retirement age and over! For whatever reason, a great number of them have come from a GA background! Frank. The majority of Ra-Aus pilots are around that age. I believe this is because this is the market Ra-Aus has spent it's efforts (and your money) on nurturing. It didn't happen by accident. Look at the number of young people you have taken flying and loved it. If recreational flying was accessible...they would come. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I'm not sure they will. winsor. The "young" people I see are rather invisible around a lot of things that "oldies" still go to. They all spend a lot of time on the I phone tweeting each other getting tattoos and metal rings inserted anywhere, and dressing in a way their own group do. Peer pressure is strong. I doubt the sustained effort required to get involved with aircraft will ever be "cool" with any critical mass of the latest additions to our populace. Some of the more sensible ones don't even drive a car. They also don't have much disposable income, so I think a strategy of trying to appeal to the younger set will have limited success if we just advertise in the "normal" way. The personal approach may provide a trickle, where they can fit in with and be mentored by some tribal elders from the aeroplane tribe. Nev 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnewbery Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I like electric flight. I think RA-Aus will stay with RAAO of single engine piston driven aircraft up to two seats. No asymmetric thrust, contra rotating or jets and no electric. The reason for this is that these propulsion systems are traditionally either the bastion of aircraft over 700Kg or experimental. Sometimes both. That still leaves a lot of scope. I would love to see an RAAO JUST for electric propulsion. Someone from SAAA chime in but I don't think there is any guidance in Oz for electric propulsion. Use the electric Lazair twin as an example. It is FAR 103 compliant over there and SSDR compliant as a float plane. As far as I know it could only be experimental in Oz but who would approve it? As an aside I think youngsters would be very interested in an bare naked electric flyer (or motorbike) with lots of coloured wires peeking out and a tablet with blue tooth for a display. There just aren't any examples to show off at the local shops 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSCBD Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 I like electric flight. I think RA-Aus will stay with RAAO of single engine piston driven aircraft up to two seats. No asymmetric thrust, contra rotating or jets and no electric. The reason for this is that these propulsion systems are traditionally either the bastion of aircraft over 700Kg or experimental. Sometimes both.That still leaves a lot of scope. I would love to see an RAAO JUST for electric propulsion. Someone from SAAA chime in but I don't think there is any guidance in Oz for electric propulsion. Use the electric Lazair twin as an example. It is FAR 103 compliant over there and SSDR compliant as a float plane. As far as I know it could only be experimental in Oz but who would approve it? As an aside I think youngsters would be very interested in an bare naked electric flyer (or motorbike) with lots of coloured wires peeking out and a tablet with blue tooth for a display. There just aren't any examples to show off at the local shops under 95.10 as I understand it, I can scratch build a plane and use battery powered engine. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnewbery Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Well it's about time we wrote the rules to get with it. and be part of the action. Trying to fit it in with an existing rule is a last resort. If we can't do better than that we should get out of the game. Back to my post#9. Electric will be a quantum jump in reliability for those that don't get a kick out of burning, shaking, motors. Nev 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunyips Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 As a newbie to Recreational Flying I feel I have a good view of the whole process of getting involved in the sport. So far I have only met with friendliness and helpful people. I have a background with jumping out of aircraft and my Dad was a pilot. I really do not think that disposable income is an issue with many young people. It is what they spend their cash on that is the decider. Big nights out, cars made for racetracks driven in built up traffic areas (lol), overpriced housing etc etc. I still believe that you can get into flying relatively cheaply and safely if you do your research, talk to the right people and be patient. My goal is to get 100 hours and an aircraft within my first year. This year! It is an exciting time to get into it really. Technology is making the previously expensive and out of reach items needed to create machines previously unthinkable ... Achievable!! I see the Electric Aircraft as a key to the future of Aviation and in particular for someone like me Recreational Aviation. Think 3D printing using materials such as hemp instead of carbon fibre! Have a look at what Zeoform from Northern NSW is doing with it. Energy storage is the only thing holding Electric back at the moment and that is rapidly changing. I built a house in the Rainforest of Far North Queensland on the South side of a hill in the wettest and cloudiest part of Australia and decided to run it with a standalone solar system. It works and that was 6 years. People said I would struggle with it but I don't. I run a generator every now and then and sometimes often during winter low cloud and rain events with the sun low in the north side of the hill I live on :) ... So! I think there will shortly be a rec aviation revolution similar to the 70's when it all of a sudden became a sort of affordable thing to do for the normal Australian on relatively medium incomes. I look at some of the guys on here designing these amazing machines from there own heads and experience from our forbears and just wonder at where this can go with such good minds seeking innovation simply for the enjoyment of creating for there peers and not just for $$$ for Multinational Parasites... So as a newbie beginning my Ultralight Journey I see a lot of positives and a lot of change is going to happen. And like many Groups and Clubs... Who may have forgotten the excitement and sheer joy of flying in Small craft for reasonable amounts of money... Then sometimes a new group emerges to cater to the needs of the new technologies and people entering into the field. This is not a political rant... Simply an observation after reading a lot of the material on this site. I feel that Recreational Flying is a grass roots pursuit that in some aspects is closer to GA than anything else. Obviously most attention will be given to where the money is in many organisations. This forum is fantastic as it lends itself to all parts of flying due to its inclusive and expansive audience. So during this year I might pop my head and neck out to update on my Cheap arsed pursuit of Recreational Flying in Far North Queensland Australia. Cheers, Todd ps. This was written in a one take rant.. Its not Gospel ;) 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 I'm not sure they will. winsor. The "young" people I see are rather invisible around a lot of things that "oldies" still go to. They all spend a lot of time on the I phone tweeting each other getting tattoos and metal rings inserted anywhere, and dressing in a way their own group do. Peer pressure is strong. I doubt the sustained effort required to get involved with aircraft will ever be "cool" with any critical mass of the latest additions to our populace. Some of the more sensible ones don't even drive a car. They also don't have much disposable income, so I think a strategy of trying to appeal to the younger set will have limited success if we just advertise in the "normal" way. The personal approach may provide a trickle, where they can fit in with and be mentored by some tribal elders from the aeroplane tribe. Nev I think that if they are going around getting tatts and piercings, they have more disposable income than you realise. Those things are expensive. I don't see the point in trying to attract people. People who want to fly will find a way to do it, just like you and I did. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSCBD Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share Posted February 18, 2017 I think that if they are going around getting tatts and piercings, they have more disposable income than you realise. Those things are expensive. I don't see the point in trying to attract people. People who want to fly will find a way to do it, just like you and I did. A lot of people (young and old) have no idea we exist, what we do, what aircraft we fly etc. They have more of a vague idea of Gliders than RAA as they see them in the movies. A flying group did a shopping mall display with aircraft years ago, and did very well with student enrollment. We need the public to see the machines in malls with information etc and then they get excited they can fly them. Take then for a quick 15 min free ride if they turn up to the school or club. Then the flying school and RAA can grab their wallet. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 It comes down to risk, kids are raised to avoid risky activities, still plenty of kids learning to fly but only for a career in the airlines there are 3 drifters for sale on gumtree for under $14000 Free local classified ads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSCBD Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share Posted February 18, 2017 It comes down to risk, kids are raised to avoid risky activities, still plenty of kids learning to fly but only for a career in the airlinesthere are 3 drifters for sale on gumtree for under $14000 Free local classified ads Saw that - drifters are fun when warm - and just love the little dependent buttercups today. My daughters 23 year old boyfriend has no idea on how to change a car tyre. He dose now. She told him what to do and watched. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 I think that if they are going around getting tatts and piercings, they have more disposable income than you realise. But that's a "I want it now" item easily fulfilled, planes involve planning and saving for longer than next week's pay-cheque. People who want to fly will find a way to do it, just like you and I did. True, but they have to be informed in the first instance to be tempted. Technology is making the previously expensive and out of reach items needed to create machines previously unthinkable ... Achievable!! I all of a sudden became a sort of affordable thing to do for the normal Australian on relatively medium incomes. Nah, diminishing market, the tech will only help to maintain existing profit margins on lower sales numbers. i.e. the price won't change, and if anything will go up to attract sales with more bespoke luxury and personalised items - which is pretty much what is already happening now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 Well it's about time we wrote the rules to get with it. and be part of the action. Nev I`ve already been told a couple of times on this thread, everything is in place to just go out and do it! Frank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSCBD Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share Posted February 18, 2017 I`ve already been told a couple of times on this thread, everything is in place to just go out and do it! Frank. I nominate Farri - To lead the RAA and - "Make RAA Flying Great Again" (and fun). Morning President Frank - how's your blood pressure! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunyips Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 I nominate Farri - To lead the RAA and - "Make RAA Flying Great Again" (and fun).Morning President Frank - how's your blood pressure! I concur.... As payment for his service as our fearless leader I would like to start a fund to buy this Italian man a decent coffee machine and some real Coffee.. Bleand 43 is NOT coffee ;) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSCBD Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share Posted February 18, 2017 I concur.... As payment for his service as our fearless leader I would like to start a fund to buy this Italian man a decent coffee machine and some real Coffee.. Bleand 43 is NOT coffee ;) I agree, and I believe a pair of shoes. He is a bit grumpy, probably from the lack of quality coffee and being an bit of a stubborn old bastard (smile frank) but he fly's like a god of the air and knows what real flying is all about. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfly Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 True! And plays like a God of Rock ... (bottom right ;-) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now