Small plane missing Victoria 18/09/22

[facthunter]

More People want everything GA has at 1/2 the price. That's the FACT.  Two stroke engines  are now less popular. A lot wish to be able to  fly everywhere and can buy a plane off the hook. Nev

[facthunter]

"A lot of fairy stories there?" Can't you do Better than that?

  Self administering doesn't guarantee survival. It just divests responsibilities FROM the body that WAS  TASKED with the responsibility by the Government of the Land.  CASA don't care if the shows go under as Long as they are a safe distance from it and can wash their hands of it. Aviation is NOT like the other things you have been involved with, Turbo. You won't recognise the Problems. Nev

Edited March 1 by facthunter
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[BrendAn]

  On 01/03/2025 at 8:15 AM, facthunter said:

More People want everything GA has at 1/2 the price. That's the FACT.  Two stroke engines  are now less popular. A lot wish to be able to  fly everywhere and can buy a plane off the hook. Nev

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Wtf has 2 stroke popularity got to do with anything. I am sure there is a place for low cost ultralights . Not everyone wants a new sling or tecnam. There are a lot of excellent ultralight kits available. Ideal for those of us that just want to fly for the joy of being up there, not to go long distances. 

[spacesailor]

i only want/need to fly " circuits " .

Then take my next flying holiday to a new airstrip to fly more " circuits " .

I mean it's great to fly the Oaks to Mittaggong /  coalcliff  & back home to the Oaks .

30 hours training in the A22 Foxbat . Worth every cent .

spacesailor

[PureCaboose]

  On 01/03/2025 at 10:11 AM, spacesailor said:

i only want/need to fly " circuits " .

Then take my next flying holiday to a new airstrip to fly more " circuits " .

I mean it's great to fly the Oaks to Mittaggong /  coalcliff  & back home to the Oaks .

30 hours training in the A22 Foxbat . Worth every cent .

spacesailor

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Next time you come by Mittagong, give me a shout. I hanger there, and love coffee...

 

[spacesailor]

We, ( instructor & I ) only used Mittaggong as a way point. .

After 30 hours , we expanded our ' circuit ' a little larger . LoL

spacesailor

[turboplanner]

  On 01/03/2025 at 8:27 AM, facthunter said:

"A lot of fairy stories there?" Can't you do Better than that?

  Self administering doesn't guarantee survival. It just divests responsibilities FROM the body that WAS  TASKED with the responsibility by the Government of the Land.  CASA don't care if the shows go under as Long as they are a safe distance from it and can wash their hands of it. Aviation is NOT like the other things you have been involved with, Turbo. You won't recognise the Problems. Nev

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That's like a dog pointlessly barking at the back door. If the door's not going to be opened there's no point in barking.

 

Other than the Prescriptive GA aircraft administered by CASA, there's just one other way to fly prescriptively and that's with SAAA.

 

Apart from that, all the other options are with Self Administering bodies where all the participants, including non-government airfields have the duty of care to eliminate all the risks and they make their own rules to manage their operations. One of the confusing things is that when they start their engines they will be rolling and flying in prescriptive airspace where CASA is the safety authority and rule maker.

 

There are people on this site who have done the study and training for the self administering, but are winging it for the prescriptive and not knowing the difference.

 

[aro]

  On 01/03/2025 at 8:09 AM, turboplanner said:

CASA already has six SASAOs;no reason why a group couldn't set up an  Incorporated Association the same as RAA Inc. with a similar structure

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Are any of the current organizations less than decades old?

 

The rules have been written around the existing organizations, I don't think any new organizations have been created under the SASAO rules. In theory you could create a new organization, in practice you would need to spend millions of dollars, with no guarantee that CASA wouldn't just say no or slow walk until you ran out of money.

[aro]

  On 01/03/2025 at 12:00 AM, kgwilson said:

No matter what, given the demeanour of the pilot in this case a major issue was almost certain in a reasonably short time. The crash and fatality happened and it was the fault of the pilot.

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If he had been properly trained you could say it was the fault of the pilot, but since he didn't receive the required training it's just speculation to say he would have done the same thing. One of the things training is supposed to give you is skills and information to make better decisions. It's the instructors job to assess the safety of the pilot they are training, if they are not safe they shouldn't be signed off to take the test.

 

  On 01/03/2025 at 1:26 AM, onetrack said:

It's telling that even his girlfriend wouldn't get in the Jabiru with him.

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His girlfriend was training for PPL, so she would have know what training he should have received.

[BrendAn]

  On 01/03/2025 at 10:16 PM, aro said:

If he had been properly trained you could say it was the fault of the pilot, but since he didn't receive the required training it's just speculation to say he would have done the same thing. One of the things training is supposed to give you is skills and information to make better decisions. It's the instructors job to assess the safety of the pilot they are training, if they are not safe they shouldn't be signed off to take the test.

 

His girlfriend was training for PPL, so she would have know what training he should have received.

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I don't buy that for a second.  He was known for pushing the envelope. You don't need any training to recognise the difference between bad weather and good weather. And I remember how bad the weather was that day.  Trying to blame others for someones stupid decisions is a cop out.  

Too much of this happens these days. We need to take responsibility for ourselves and our decisions.

Also being an experienced paraglider I would have thought reading the weather would be important for that as well.

[turboplanner]

  On 01/03/2025 at 10:09 PM, aro said:

Are any of the current organizations less than decades old?

 

The rules have been written around the existing organizations, I don't think any new organizations have been created under the SASAO rules. In theory you could create a new organization, in practice you would need to spend millions of dollars, with no guarantee that CASA wouldn't just say no or slow walk until you ran out of money.

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SAFA

 

  On 01/03/2025 at 10:23 PM, BrendAn said:

I don't buy that for a second.  He was known for pushing the envelope. You don't need any training to recognise the difference between bad weather and good weather. And I remember how bad the weather was that day.  Trying to blame others for someones stupid decisions is a cop out.  

Too much of this happens these days. We need to take responsibility for ourselves and our decisions.

Also being an experienced paraglider I would have thought reading the weather would be important for that as well.

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MET as it is called is a complex subject and the Met Module favours the student who is spending a long time training because he/she experience more and different type of weather whereas someone who lives on site with the training taking less than 30 days may experience 30 calm and finew days then six months later take off and fly directly to their end.

 

However, those who read the Coroner's Report right to the end will have a better idea of what caused his death, and if there is a claim then a Court will decide exactly who was responsible.

 

[aro]

  On 01/03/2025 at 10:23 PM, BrendAn said:

I don't buy that for a second.  He was known for pushing the envelope. You don't need any training to recognise the difference between bad weather and good weather.

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That doesn't matter. He shouldn't have had a license. Otherwise, what are training and testing for? Why not make training optional?

 

  On 01/03/2025 at 10:23 PM, BrendAn said:

Also being an experienced paraglider I would have thought reading the weather would be important for that as well.

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There's a really big difference between weather at 20 knots vs weather at 120 knots. That's one thing that you would expect the training to focus on.

[aro]

  On 01/03/2025 at 10:31 PM, turboplanner said:

SAFA

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SAFA was HGFA, which has been around for how long?

[turboplanner]

  On 01/03/2025 at 10:09 PM, aro said:

Are any of the current organizations less than decades old?

 

The rules have been written around the existing organizations, I don't think any new organizations have been created under the SASAO rules. In theory you could create a new organization, in practice you would need to spend millions of dollars, with no guarantee that CASA wouldn't just say no or slow walk until you ran out of money.

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• Recreational Aviation Australia Inc. 
• Recreational Aviation Australia Ltd
• SAFA

 

Depends on how good you are with paperwork, and the skills in the group to produce an acceptable constitution, and policies and set up a skilled management structure, and also what you want to do.

 

 

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

  On 01/03/2025 at 10:38 PM, aro said:

SAFA was HGFA, which has been around for how long?

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When HGFA was operating SAFA wasn't around.

When AUF was operating RAA wasn't around.

These were new organisations.

 

[aro]

  On 01/03/2025 at 10:40 PM, turboplanner said:

When HGFA was operating SAFA wasn't around.

When AUF was operating RAA wasn't around.

These were new organisations.

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If members, aircraft, ops manuals, CASA exemptions etc carry across from one organization to the other I wouldn't call them new organizations - just a restructure/rename.

 

A new organization would mean developing manuals from scratch, recruiting members etc. Totally different story.

[turboplanner]

  On 01/03/2025 at 10:44 PM, aro said:

If members, aircraft, ops manuals, CASA exemptions etc carry across from one organization to the other I wouldn't call them new organizations - just a restructure/rename.

 

A new organization would mean developing manuals from scratch, recruiting members etc. Totally different story.

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In most Industries and Sports, if you want to get one up fast you pick an existing model that's worked and use that as a base; it can be from another Industry or it can be from the existing body.

 

Two of us set up the policies and controls of the reasonably complicated (about 75 mm thick) ISO 9001 Policy, including trials in 6 branches in three months, using an existing example from another industry.

[aro]

  On 01/03/2025 at 10:51 PM, turboplanner said:

In most Industries and Sports, if you want to get one up fast you pick an existing model that's worked and use that as a base; it can be from another Industry or it can be from the existing body.

 

Two of us set up the policies and controls of the reasonably complicated (about 75 mm thick) ISO 9001 Policy, including trials in 6 branches in three months, using an existing example from another industry.

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If you want to set up a flying school or charter business, I would expect that to work, but people who have done it report it's much more difficult than expected e.g. documentation acceptable for an existing business might be rejected for a new business.

 

For a parallel alternative to RAAus - extremely unlikely.

[FlyBoy1960]

whatever happened to the other group which was going to run parallel with the RA-Aus. It was all over this website for about a year and then just quietly disappeared after they kept missing their 'open for business' dates ?

[Blueadventures]

  On 01/03/2025 at 10:44 PM, aro said:

If members, aircraft, ops manuals, CASA exemptions etc carry across from one organization to the other I wouldn't call them new organizations - just a restructure/rename.

 

A new organization would mean developing manuals from scratch, recruiting members etc. Totally different story.

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ELAAA tried some years back but did not get over the line / approved by CASA.

[Thruster88]

Look how long it has taken to get group G up, 2 or 3 years and still not done.

[facthunter]

It won't be done unless It's in CASA's Interests. Nev

[Love to fly]

  On 01/03/2025 at 11:33 PM, Thruster88 said:

Look how long it has taken to get group G up, 2 or 3 years and still not done.

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Perhaps this accident has had an effect on timing. Given the review that is coming. 

[Methusala]

  On 01/03/2025 at 10:36 PM, aro said:

That doesn't matter. He shouldn't have had a license. Otherwise, what are training and testing for? Why not make training optional?

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That is a straw argument. Do you believe that only unqualified people make bad decisions? What of the De Havilland Dragon that went in at Imbil few years back? Training will not alter bad decisions made because, "We want to get there." The lack of training had almost no impact on the fact that the pilot made a fatal decision. RAA can be criticised for many sins but this one is all on the individual.

[Love to fly]

  On 02/03/2025 at 12:05 AM, Methusala said:

That is a straw argument. Do you believe that only unqualified people make bad decisions? What of the De Havilland Dragon that went in at Imbil few years back? Training will not alter bad decisions made because, "We want to get there." The lack of training had almost no impact on the fact that the pilot made a fatal decision. RAA can be criticised for many sins but this one is all on the individual.

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Actually in my opinion you're wrong. Training won't ensure all decisions are sound. But does give an educated basis to form an opinion. Accelerated/shortened training removes that. You don't know what you don't know.