Blueadventures Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 Applications can be made from 9 February 2024. A step in right direction. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thruster88 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 From the February casa brief Director of Aviation Safety, Pip Spence We're launching into 2024 with the much-anticipated introduction of the Class 5 medical self-declaration scheme. It allows many private and recreational pilots to self-assess and self-declare without the need to see a doctor. It's a significant initiative we've been progressing as part of our General Aviation Workplan aimed at reducing unnecessary cost burdens and simplifying regulatory processes. While the Class 5 won't meet everyone's needs, it was informed by strong feedback to introduce a scheme that didn't involve a doctor, is based on comprehensive risk analysis and a careful examination of what other safety authorities do overseas. The fact that Australia is the first jurisdiction where pilots will not have to see a doctor or medical practitioner made it difficult to find comparative data on the likelihood of impairment or a related accident. That's why we've taken an initially conservative approach and put in place operational limitations on what you can do when flying with a Class 5. We've noted your feedback on the need to keep looking at the operational limitations and we'll continue to gather safety and risk data to inform future decisions on whether we can remove or relax the restrictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) History would suggest that self certification/adherence/administration is going to be abused/fail. It's human nature to drift from the rules (look at Boing) This is an oft repeated mistake by bureaucrats & politicians seeking a cheap way out. Ultimately there will be a high cost to pay - much recrimination - costly investigation (of what everyone already knows) - no one to be held responsible - followed by a return to an independent certifier/authority. Edited February 6 by skippydiesel 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thruster88 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 Self declared has been working just fine with RAAus for 41 years now. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 23 minutes ago, Thruster88 said: Self declared has been working just fine with RAAus for 41 years now. Really???? I suspect luck and or statistically small/insignificant (at the moment) incidents, that have been "brushed under the carpet". Times have changed - the club atmosphere has all but evaporated - it's now a business. In a club, there is some chance of a straying individual being guided back onto the proper path - almost none in today's RAA - that is until after the fact/transgression has come to light (death?) In the RAA beginnings, the aircraft were minute underpowered kites, that barely left the ground. The enthusiasts knew or at least knew of, each other - we are now contemplating 720 kg relative monsters by comparison, that will regularly climb to 9500 ft and cruise at 140 knots, coupled with sufficiently large & dispersed membership, where all sorts of shenanigans may be contemplated & got away with - until tragedy. Ask yourself - what aging person readily admits to the ravages of time on their physical/mental capacity? You are ignoring the weight of historical evidence, on the failures of self administration, resulting from all too fallible humans running the system. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thruster88 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 2 hours ago, skippydiesel said: Really???? I suspect luck and or statistically small/insignificant (at the moment) incidents, that have been "brushed under the carpet". Times have changed - the club atmosphere has all but evaporated - it's now a business. In a club, there is some chance of a straying individual being guided back onto the proper path - almost none in today's RAA - that is until after the fact/transgression has come to light (death?) In the RAA beginnings, the aircraft were minute underpowered kites, that barely left the ground. The enthusiasts knew or at least knew of, each other - we are now contemplating 720 kg relative monsters by comparison, that will regularly climb to 9500 ft and cruise at 140 knots, coupled with sufficiently large & dispersed membership, where all sorts of shenanigans may be contemplated & got away with - until tragedy. Ask yourself - what aging person readily admits to the ravages of time on their physical/mental capacity? You are ignoring the weight of historical evidence, on the failures of self administration, resulting from all too fallible humans running the system. Are you suggesting pilots of higher performance aircraft like your sonex should have a casa class 2 medical? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 1 minute ago, Thruster88 said: Are you suggesting pilots of higher performance aircraft like your sonex should have a casa class 2 medical? I preferer the status quo . This does not mean that I am blind to the potential for self assessing, one's own medical fitness, to be deliberatly or inadvertently (self delusion) falsified with potentially tragic outcomes. It true that medicos make mistakes, people have dropped dead shortly after an all clear from their GP/Specialist but at least the opinion of a trained third party has been sought. With no medical training/pathology tests/etc, you are asking that a pilot assess their own fitness to hold a license/certificate -- dodgy! Also true that, on a flight by flight basis, we all assess our fitness but should this be extended to a 12 month health check ???? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 I would place competency behind the controls as a far higher priority than any medical. After all, how many aircraft have fallen out of the sky because the pilot died at the controls. Not exactly a statistically important figure. But a far bigger number of aircraft have fallen out of the sky simply because the pilot lacked competency in controlling the aircraft or in flight planning. 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 I am assessed by my doctor for my driver's licence. RAA accepts that, as " self declared " fitness. I had a ' heart check ' that seemed to go on forever. When asked as to my health , that Dr said he doesn't talk to his patients, & all the results are in the " cloud ". No more heart checking . If it's ticking it passes muster . spacesailor 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackc Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 (edited) 15 hours ago, spacesailor said: I am assessed by my doctor for my driver's licence. RAA accepts that, as " self declared " fitness. I had a ' heart check ' that seemed to go on forever. When asked as to my health , that Dr said he doesn't talk to his patients, & all the results are in the " cloud ". No more heart checking . If it's ticking it passes muster . spacesailor Well, I took it on myself to get a a full Heart Echo Stress Test, my wife’s Cardiologist gave me the referral and and I paid the $636 for it, the Cardiologist asked WHY and I told him I fly and I had a personal responsibility to be tested, incase I had a latent problem. I passed with flying colours doing my level best to burn the bearings out of the treadmill 🤩 Now I know that heartwise I am fit to fly for a long time. I am very medically orientated, having studied internal medicine for the last 12 years of so and being a paid subscriber to a medical journal where I study case histories and clinical trials as a hobby. My GP is our local DAME as well….. Edited February 7 by jackc Word change 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 i wouldn't advise doing a stress ECG unless you have to particularly when you are older. It only means you didn't have a heart attack THAT time. Nev 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 My ( they say ) problem is 'arrhythmia ' . I just say " I'm saving the my heart by not rushing it " . I don't mind if it goes down to 45 bpm . But preferably 55 bpm is OK . THEY ( heart specialist ) got me up to 105 bpm on that treadmill . spacesailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area-51 Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 (edited) I think its a good idea, so long as it provides a non discriminating approach to a majority of the community. This would require a box to tick related to "psychiatric self assessment" ("do you suffer from a psychiatric condition?"); the bureaucrat is completely absolved from all and any level of accountability. And the insurance companies are also absolved then from any requirement to payout other than at their discretion. Because everyone will tick the "No" box. Never tick the No box for psychiatric self assessment; its a trick question! Always tick Yes; but only if you are or have ever been married... It's best if you apply and delegate all pilot responsibilities and ownership over to your best mate Bluey, or the wife's cat Kiki. Just buy them an iphone and sign them up to FB and its all done automatically in an instant; ID, chips, national register, homeland security, canine Boat-Drone-N-Ute license; eazy peazy... Edited February 7 by Area-51 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 Medical self declarations have been around in the UK for PPL since 2015. I have not heard of any adverse issues. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 The Point has been all along that the normal pilot medicals are not good at predicting all the outcomes. I personally could quote instances of heart failure among pilots within weeks of doing a stress ECG. and not very old in many cases, either. Nev. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 I'm not talking of In Flight. I know of one just immediately after landing, Pulse rates of over 200 have been recorded in extreme stress situations. This would be the figures athletes reach but without the conditioning they have. Nev 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 (edited) The important thing with your health is to ensure you have regular medical checkups to establish patterns. Many people place great emphasis on regular servicing of their aircraft, cars and other machinery - but fail to establish regular checks on the machine that drives them. A good GP is all you need, see him/her every 3 to 5 years, and establish any pattern in increased blood pressure, cholesterol, and any other risk factors. Get regular blood tests done, this is the same as oil sampling, you establish the pattern of results, and watch for any increases in pertinent factors that provide warning of potential trouble. Ask plenty of questions about results, a lot of docs need to be prodded. Many people that keel over from cardio problems often show little outward signs of cardio problems, and regularly have no family history of cardio problems. It's not a bragging point to say you've never seen a doctor in 10 or 20 years. Edited February 8 by onetrack 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 IF you are showing signs of breathlessness and difficulty with walking and talking at the same time get a check up sooner rather than later. Eat better and keep the weight in check. NO sugary drinks or processed foods IF you are fair dinkum. Reduce salt intake unless you sweat a lot doing work in the heat. Nev 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 I've been getting an annual check up with my GP for well over 20 years. The only thing that I have had is a BRAO (Branch Retinal Artery Occlusion) commonly called an eye stroke back in 2013. This prevented blood getting to part of the retina of my right eye & so I have lost vision for about 40% of that eye when it died through lack of blood oxygen. The rest is good & my brain has compensated. At the time I got scans to check plaque on my arteries, wore a harness with about 6 probes stuck to my body for several days, had a 30 minute stress test on a treadmill and some other things & I was pronounced fit & well. It was caused by a tiny bit of plaque getting in to the tiny retinal artery & blocking it. Very common apparently even in very fit people. At the time I thought i might become a genuine 1 eyed pilot. I don't even think about it now. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackc Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 4 hours ago, facthunter said: The Point has been all along that the normal pilot medicals are not good at predicting all the outcomes. I personally could quote instances of heart failure among pilots within weeks of doing a stress ECG. and not very old in many cases, either. Nev. The key here is the ultrasound component, looking for artery narrowing or blockages. In a person with known heart disease an angiogram is done after a blockage is suspected, if found then a stent is inserted to solve the problem. But, I have seen an instance where another blockage occurred a month later, my wife case in point. The symptoms pointed to another blockage, my wife’s Cardiologist asked me what I thought as I study Cardiology. My comment was, it’s his job but…….if it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, my guess is…..it’s a duck. As far as I am concerned. So we did an Angiogram and I was in the theatre and yes it was a duck, so I watched the stenting process and the new blockage was 10mm from the previous one. A surprise for us both. He said he had not seen this before, and he has been attending my wife for 23 years, and she now has 7 stents the result of inherited heart disease. But yes, even Sudden Cardiac Arrest can occur at any time, some 20,000 people die each year from that in Australia. Blockages of of the arteries is one thing, also consider the hearts electrophysiology aspect of problems that can affect it as well. Its a complex organ that can see continuous service 24 hours a day for 80 years and beyond 🤩🤩 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 " see your doctor every 3 to 5 years " . For the wife & I . It seems 3 to 5 weeks is a long time , without appointments. My appointments are not as great now as before my hip replacement. But the wife has taken over from me . Now has a ' heart vein ' constriction, & a lung infection, from ' bush fire ' smoke . But has finished with ' skin cancer ' radiation treatment. So that's good . spacesailor 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 It's truly amazing what the heart does during your lifetime Ultra sounds are safe. I've probably had too much contact with radioactivity with X Rays. I'm seeing a blood specialist. Heart, Kidneys and liver are fine and lung capacity. Nev 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurnieM Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 Anybody applied for it yet ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
440032 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 GOT IT first thing this morning. Did the online yesterday, about an hour. Did the quiz last night, about 45 mins. Applied this morning and got it inside about 20 mins. The system actually works quite well. 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodgerc Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 Well that was easy enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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