AVIATION AND MOTORCYCLES

[Bob Llewellyn]

Hay bales ?. . . . yeah,. . .they're effective OK, so long as you don't hit them on yer bike. . , but try hitting one at the end of the cronky voddy straight doing 140 / 150 mph and it's the only thing between you and a dry stone wall. . . ( lots of these on the Island course ). . . ..hmmmmm don't take the Isle of Man as a benchmark for rider safety, geez, most international riders won't go near the place. we usually lose one or two good, experienced riders and a half dozen international visitors every year, which gives you some idea of how bloody downright dangerous road racing can be. Still.. . . I suppose they have do do SOMETHING to slightly reduce the impact, but I know NOTHING of the "Cheesecutter" barriers I've read about on this thread, since I last rode a bike in Australia in 1981. . . . . .Has anyone got a piccy for phil'z eddification ? ? ? ? ? ? ( Now,. . .DON'T GO AND GET YOURSELF RUN DOWN BY A MACK TRUCK TRYING TO TAKE A PHOTOGRAPH OF A CRASH BARRIER JUST FOR ME. . . .!!! ) The local drivers will think you're a plane registration spotter. . . . .or some kind of traffic pervert. . . .

 

Perhaps they should erect a load of special road signs as they do at the IOMTT,. . . . "Immer links fahren bitte" this means, in German, "DRIVE ON THE LEFT YOU BLOODY LOONEYS " there are a lot of German visitors there, in fact, without their patronage the TT would not have survived as it gets hardly ANY media coverage from the UK . . . . But in the Australian case, it could be something like. . ." Wanna get shredded mate ? ? ? ? - then stay on the highway and don't hit me. . ."

 

Anyway. . . Ensuligensie bitte ( sorry ) for the thread drift but INCIDENTALLY. . this link doesn't seem to have been mentioned thus far. . . .. have you ever thought that people who ride motorcycles, ( and to a some extent. . .bicycles ) a lot, either already have,. . .or soon develop a strong sense of B A L A N C E . . . . . now, I wonder in which other dynamic petrolhead pastime this ability might be a bit handy. . . . ??

 

Answers on a postcard. . . .

 

Phil

The rat's gonna get me, I'm sure... anyway try "acceptance of personal responsibility" (for one's own safety), and "threshold of sensory overload" - for me, being part of the travelling experience on the 'bike is very similar to flight. I admit, I find Thrusters, Drifters, and sailplanes much more bike-like than the Lightwing GR-912 I flew...

 

 

[Captain]

I agree RL and I reckon that "Individual & Personal Responsibility" should be the cornerstone of Aussie Law.

 

 

 

In all my motorcycle riding, sailplane flying and UL activities I have always left strict instructions with my family that NOBODY is to be sued in the event of an accident, on the basis that I have chosen to pursue the pastime precisely because it is more fun because there is some inherent risk, that I will maintain the machine, I will evaluate all data and I will make all decisions on whether to "go" or not.

 

 

 

I flew sailpanes out of Tocumwal and Coryong where the organisations provided a morning weather briefing. As you would know, when you are chasing cross-country conditions in summer out there it is easy to get a day that over-develops when you are actually searching for an optimum day that "almost" over-develops, yet some were willing, if not keen, to always blame the briefing and the briefer if it all turned to custard.

 

 

 

In these days where everyone is looking for an excuse and rapists can mitigate if they ever had an ingrowing toenail as a kiddie, individuals actually taking responsibility for their own decisions and actions is pretty unique, and getting more so.

 

 

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[Captain]

The rat's gonna get me, I'm sure... - for me, being part of the travelling experience on the 'bike is very similar to flight. I admit, I find Thrusters, Drifters, and sailplanes much more bike-like than the Lightwing GR-912 I flew...

Bob,

 

 

 

And further .......... the big similarity for me between Aviation and Motorcycles is the absolute need to "stay ahead of the machine", and the enjoyment that results when you get that right.

 

 

 

If either get ahead of you, you are stuffed .......... and that is a real buzz to be in control of.

 

 

 

Regards Ratso

 

 

[facthunter]

The aeroplane's better. Moves in all axis... Still in control... It's grip on the air is less tactile but you don't slip like you do on tyres. The bike gives the illusion of flight sometimes but the aeroplane is the real thing especially when upsidedown is much the same as rightway up. Then your motion potential is complete even if you only hang in the straps occasionally. It's available (conceptually. anyhow). Nev

 

 

[PA.]

What I did on Sunday.

 

 

 

[alf jessup]

Great handling skills there PA & great video too.

 

Alf

 

 

[fatmal]

Maybe late to this thread, but here's my bike history;

 

• Suzuki TS50 - I was about 8 years old - couldn't reach the ground!
   
   
  
• Honda CD175 (single carb model, 4-speed). Was Dad's bike but I used to ride it round the local park
   
   
  
• Yamaha YZ125c - evil thing! The rear monoshock attached directly to the steering head, so large bumps at the rear would induce head shake
   
   
  
• Yamaha RD350 - used to ride it to school!
   
   
  
• Yamaha LC250, the first bike I raced on a proper track. I used to think I was quite fast until I did that!!
   
   
  
• Yamaha XJ750, also a race bike - the footpegs were so short it failed a roadworthy. The trick was to keep the throttle open (shaftdrive holds the backend up) while dragging the front brake (anti-dive keeps the front-end up) - left go of either and you run out of ground clearance and you crash
   
   
  
• Yamaha RZ350
   
   
  
• Yamaha TZ350F - wild thing! Seized at 200kph+, which was quite exciting!
   
   
  
• Yamaha TZ500G - fast at the time, but easily beaten by a modern 1,000cc sports bike now
   
   
  
• Tony Hatton framed, Rotax-powered 250 gp bike - wildly unreliable, but 50+HP from 250cc will do that!
   
   
  
• Kawasaki Z1R Turbo - completely nuts! When the turbo spun up, you could feel the frame twist - even in a straight line!
   
   
  
• Kawasaki KDX175 - made me realise that dirt riding is REALLY tiring!
   
   
  
• Suzuki RM370, a 400N, then a Yamaha YZ465 - I can't look at those things now without twinges of pain!
   
   
  
• BSA DBD34 Gold Star - a rebuild project (in my lounge in London)
   
   
  
• Honda RC30 - best bike I've ever ridden, and I've still got it. It sits in my brother's garage, sadly not ridden for a few years
   
   
  
• Honda CBR600, Suzuki GSXR600 (both race bikes)
   
   
  
• Aprilia's RS125, 250 & RSV1000 (all race bikes)
   
   
  
• Moto Guzzi V50
   
   
  
• Honda RS250 - one of the slowest bikes I've ever ridden, but had the biggest crash - was hit by a car that was being towed, and they hadn't turned to key on, so the steering was locked on full right lock.
   
   
  
• Honda VFR750 - a great allrounder
   
   
  
• 2 x Honda VTR1000 Firestorms - did 30,000 k on the first one then sold it. About a week later I thought "What did I do that for?", so bought another
   
   
  
• Suzuki RG150, another race/trackday bike
   
   
  
• Husqvarna 610 Supermotard - a fairly soft motard
   
   
  
• Husaberg 650 Supermotard - an extremely crazy motard!!! Soooo much fun!!!
   
   
  

 

 

There's probably a few I've forgotten (or wanted to forget!). Now - I ride a 200cc scooter, as its the right tool for my daily commute. It's odd, I can drive a car for years and not break a single law (or at least not get caught!), and I'm a VERY conservative pilot, but put me on two wheels (yes - even my scooter!) and I turn into a hooligan!

 

Mal

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

What I did on Sunday.

Fightening to watch that video PA, but also impressive. Such elegant bike control; the sport of gentlemen.

Trials is potentially a very dangerous sport; a bit like flying, bikes need speed for stability. I have come off at 130 without injury, but broken bones at walking pace.

 

 

[PA.]

I broke my right leg into the ankle joint in 2001. One surgeon said what he saw was what he would normally see from a light plane crash. Guess it was fate to learn to fly after all, I had the injuries.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

What I did on Sunday.

I started the Queensland Vintage MX club and ran it for nearly 10 years. Raced anything dirt since I was 13 years old and started my apprenticeship at Rod Linden Yamaha in Frankston not long after. MX mostly but also enduros and flat track but must admit to not having the patience for Trials but wholly admire the talent it takes. have done a few laps road racing on club practice days.

 

Also and still to this day, holding a RWC ticket for bikes, there's not much I haven't ridden and before I came to China the last year in my shed saw a Valkerie 1500, Suzy GSXR750, Suzy VX 800, CZ 250 and 400 scramblers and a few others.

 

I have have owned around 100 bikes I guess, standouts being RZ350, Can Am 250 MX (40hp in 1977!), original red and black 1985 Suzuki GSX-R750F, ex-factory prepared Yamaha IT490, loved my CZ's and of course who can forget your first bike, a 1972 Honda SL70 which I hotted up (including grinding the back of the camshaft down on a bench grinder!) and eventually could leave XR75's standing :)

 

Engines I have built have taken multiple Qld MX titles, Qld road race titles and a couple of Australian MX titles - all 2 strokes.

 

 

[mothra]

• Husaberg 650 Supermotard - an extremely crazy motard!!! Soooo much fun!!!
   
   
  

 

 

 

Mal

Impressive history Mal!

 

Gotta give the 650 'Berg a , biggest grin factor of any bike I've ridden.

 

 

[facthunter]

Riding motorcycles and flying is often combined. Sir Jack Brabham wanted to be a pilot in the airforce, but still ended up flying his twin engine thing( Think it was a Beagle) for thousands of hours all over Europe. Graham Hill (father of Damion? Hill was killed in his light plane.trying to land in crook conditions. Lionel Van Pragh was a good speedway rider. and excellent pilot. When TAA started 1947? quite a lot of pilots rode motorcycles to work but that was a bit frowned upon although I earned more money in a blast furnace firebrick factory at age 15. (Newbolds General Refractories) in Newcastle , than a DC 3 Captain did in TAA at the time, so I wonder if they could afford a car.. Not a lot of Motorcycles around aerodromes these days. I think you need similar skills and reactions for either. Nev

 

 

[Bob Llewellyn]

Riding motorcycles and flying is often combined. Sir Jack Brabham wanted to be a pilot in the airforce, but still ended up flying his twin engine thing( Think it was a Beagle) for thousands of hours all over Europe. Graham Hill (father of Damion? Hill was killed in his light plane.trying to land in crook conditions. Lionel Van Pragh was a good speedway rider. and excellent pilot. When TAA started 1947? quite a lot of pilots rode motorcycles to work but that was a bit frowned upon although I earned more money in a blast furnace firebrick factory at age 15. (Newbolds General Refractories) in Newcastle , than a DC 3 Captain did in TAA at the time, so I wonder if they could afford a car.. Not a lot of Motorcycles around aerodromes these days. I think you need similar skills and reactions for either. Nev

sense of spatial perception, perhaps...

 

 

[turboplanner]

I earned more money in a blast furnace firebrick factory at age 15. (Newbolds General Refractories) in Newcastle , than a DC 3 Captain did in TAA at the time

An interesting statistic for the Regional Airline pilots of today who are complaining bitterly of low pay and no future

 

 

[facthunter]

They are paid below a living wage, in the RHseat. It's been a race to the bottom in Airlines for some years now. Who can cut costs the most. It is too dear to go by bus so you fly. That's not realistic. Just read Sully's book. The airline had stopped putting the protruding tabs on the abnormal and emergency checklists. That could have caused the loss of valuable time. Flying is not the job it was once. Maintenance and pilot training cut right back . Fatiguing rosters and longer sectors that couldn't be done years ago because of fuel usage. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

 

What do you think of these Phil? How'd you like to slide into those at 100 kph or more .... or even have a car change lanes on you and push you into it while you are still on the bike?

 

Interesting quote from Road Safety professional, John Lambert who used to work at Vicroads and is a specialist at drilling down through available statistics, and has recognition world-wide:

 

"bit like the motorcycle argument about wire rope barriers where they refer to them as "cheese cutters" to raise emotive thought about motorcyclists being sliced up. Actual evidence is that WRR save many more motorcyclists from injury or death than they cause injury or death, and WRR are similar to steel and concrete barriers in causing motorcyclist injury and death"

 

We had been having a group discussion about the frangible trees used on Victorian freeways (mlaleuca armilaris, mealeuca ericifolia) and the general opinion was that while these trees cut down glare from headlights, they allowed the vehicle through to then be involved in a head on collision much worse.

 

In that discussion, there were opinions that the "W" barriers (Armco) produced worse injuries that te cable barriers, and the cable barrier manufacturer came into the discussion suggesting that many of the cable barriers in Australia were incorrectly fitted, and that they are designed to extend very easily (all the posts are frangible) and allow the energy to be dissipated with a minimum of intrusion, or grating (because when you hit and the posts snap off you then have a "V" to stop the cheese effect.

 

This quote comes from a different discussion, but it should give you a little reassurance that the statistics indicate you will be better off.

 

 

[Captain]

Tubb,

 

 

 

As per a previous comment, I'll accept that Cheese Cutters may be regarded as roughly equivalent to an Armco W barrier that does not extend all the way to the ground, but I do not accept that they are better for motorcyclists that a W Armco barrier that does not have a gap below it.

 

 

 

Of course, if you hit one (or anything else) at the wrong angle they can all kill you.

 

 

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[turboplanner]

It appears the gap below the armco is its weak spot - I know of one fatality on the Tullamarine Freeway where a rider was killed because of the gap.

 

It also appears the cheese cutters primarily become cheese cutters if they are stretched rigid, which is why the manufacturer is getting his hair in a knot.

 

We've had great results in speedway with solos and sidecar outfits since the 1980's when we adopted flat concrete safety fences 1700 mm (from memory) high. This tends to create an angled collision which dissipates some of the energy and spits the vehicle away from the surface. While there was a rumour that I'd said their heads were harder than concrete, so it would be like a diamond cutting through glass, that wasn't true.

 

I've known John for many years and trust his research, so if he cites actual evidence showing WRR save many more motorcyclists from injury or death than they cause, I listen. One simple reason for this is you no longer slide into the gum tree/ditch I suppose, but also, in cases where your bike takes the impact rather than your body the cables are supposed to [when fitted correctly] act the same as the arrest cables on an aircraft carrier deck.

 

 

[paulh]

Unfortunately almost impossible to design a road safety barrier system for all the different types and sizes of vehicles on the road, common test levels are for 800kg and 2000kg vehicles. In an ideal mythical world the hazards would be designed out and there would be no need for barriers, but then roads would be too boring for bike riders who would then go looking for a nice fun winding road, usually with road side trees, steep drop offs and narrow shoulders

 

Properly designed wire rope barriers should be slightly better than W beam guard rail as the posts are frangible aluminium if you manage somehow to slide under.

 

Not sure a human body has enough energy to deflect the wires much

 

There are a lot of non compliant barriers out there

 

 

[bexrbetter]

There are a lot of non compliant barriers out there

Thats a lot of words, I simply refer to them as "trees".

 

 

[paulh]

Ok in simpler words:-

 

Some knob installed a steel barrier beside of road cause someone thought it needed one - but it didn't

 

Or

 

Some other knob (possibly the same 'someone' as above) designed a safety barrier but has no idea what they are doing

 

 

[M61A1]

Thats a lot of words, I simply refer to them as "trees".

Seems par for the course these days, make simple things more technical than they need to be. I saw a council mower in Brisbane a while ago, labelled "Vegetation Control Unit #4". Mind you I knew a truck driver that had it right, "Dirt Chauffeur".

 

 

[PA.]

I think this sums it up pretty well.

 

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

I saw one in Wangaratta years ago that said "We take sh*t from anyone"

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

Triumph Sprint ST955 & thinking about an Aprilia RS250 for track days

Go Cressie!