Happyflyer Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 I did the bulk of my training there. I credit their thoroughness and the fact that they train to the GA syllabus (to the extent possible - no incip spins or instrument) and standards as a big part of helping me make a smooth transition to PPL. I always thought an incipient spin was a wing drop at the stall and that is in the RAAus and GA syllabus. I did my training at a RAAus/GA school and there was no difference except for the intrument time requirements. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 Incipent spins are a required competency under the RAAus syllabus. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayavner Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Just looked it up... appears you are correct, although as defined in the ops manual, it is a stall with a wing drop - and I did do those, but I don't think he called them incipient spins. Over in GA-land, when we did them, it was also a stall wtih a wing drop, but this time the nose was pointed down and rotation was about to start. Should I have done that in RA-Aus as well? Glad I got them in somehow!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayavner Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 3.04 Unit 6.2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coljones Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 The interesting thing is that you are not allowed to do spins but you must demonstrate an ability to get out of them. There are no incipient spins mentioned in Issue 7 of the Ops and Training Manuals (not even a part 3.04). Perhaps we should get the constitutional review panel to review the Ops manual (past and present) for adequacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyflyer Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Element 7 of the new Syllabus of Flight Training (Stalling) includes "Correct recovery technique when wing drops" in part 7.2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarly Gnu Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Hourly rate is important of course but not as important as the total hours required - check the schools average time to certificate. Some (many? I'm not sure) try to milk it out as long as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mriya Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Hourly rate is important of course but not as important as the total hours required - check the schools average time to certificate. Some (many? I'm not sure) try to milk it out as long as possible. Great point GG. Although I am not in the 'know' with regards to averages, my experience at Dave's Flying School was that they never tried to hold me back or 'milk' me for more hours or money. In fact, quite the opposite. I completed the Pilot Cert in the minimum allowable time and by that stage had 8 hrs command time and already had done some dual navs. So in summary fantastic rates + no making me do more hours than I had to = happy customer and great overall value. A big thumbs-up for Dave's Flying School which explains why I had my Son start his training there even though we live interstate these days. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyflyer Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 I completed the Pilot Cert in the minimum allowable time and by that stage had 8 hrs command time and already had done some dual navs. So in summary fantastic rates + no making me do more hours than I had to = happy customer and great overall value.A big thumbs-up for Dave's Flying School which explains why I had my Son start his training there even though we live interstate these days. Lets see. 20 hours minimum to Pilot Cert. You did 8 hours solo and "some dual navs". So at most 10 hours dual ab initio instruction, possibly including a pre-test. Given that most people would be very happy to go solo in 10 hours you must be quite a pilot. How did you do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mriya Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 Lets see. 20 hours minimum to Pilot Cert. You did 8 hours solo and "some dual navs". So at most 10 hours dual ab initio instruction, possibly including a pre-test. Given that most people would be very happy to go solo in 10 hours you must be quite a pilot. How did you do that? The numbers are in my logbook and you have correctly connected the dots, however I deliberately kept it a little vague because the point of my post was not to blow my own trumpet but rather highlight the fact that I wasn't milked for extra hrs and money during my training at Dave's Flying School. I certainly don't consider myself to be anything special as a pilot, however I had the opportunity to go solo at 8 hrs and was then able to consolidate with significant solo time over the next 12 hrs. Bottom line is I have a lot of time and respect for Dave. He has a huge amount of experience and I have been privileged to be able to be trained by him and have tried to soak up as much wisdom as possible during my training. As Dave wisely said when he gave me my pilot certificate at 20hrs, "This is a ticket to keep learning". Since getting my pilot certificate in Feb 2009 I have continued that learning process, both formally with TW,LP,Pax&Nav endorsements (at Dave's Flying School of course) and informally as I fly privately and for work related maintenance check or ferry flights. I have not forgotten Dave's words and they ring true on almost every flight I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 Im not picking on the operator, but whats missing? Something has to give. 8 Hours to Solo, then * hours solo, and a lic at 20 WITh some navs.. Hmm.. Think i better bite my tongue.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mriya Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 Im not picking on the operator, but whats missing? Something has to give. 8 Hours to Solo, then * hours solo, and a lic at 20 WITh some navs.. Hmm..Think i better bite my tongue.. I recognise people's concerns and they are valid. Text messages rarely tell a complete story and a couple of responses here have focused on a particular aspect (hrs to solo & pilot cert when this was never intended to be the focus) of what I posted. To allay any concerns and to ensure the FTF in question is not maligned by assumptions or incomplete information, it is probably appropriate to mention my extensive background in aviation including my family owning an aircraft. It is possible that I gained a fair amount of 'informal' flying time in a different context which has never been recorded. However, as I said in my earlier post, this was never meant to be about me, but rather was supposed to be a compliment to a particular FTF for doing the right thing. Competency based training is the name of the game. All I was trying to highlight is that if you can demonstrate competency Dave would not hold you back. I am sorry that some have tried to read more into my situation, without access to the full story. I was never suggesting that shortcuts were taken and I echo the comments of many others who have high regard for Dave and his school. Enough said, and I think I will bow out of this discussion as it was fast getting high jacked and taken in a direction which gave a wrong impression of one of the best schools and group of instructors that one could ever meet. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 If we had a thread about Jesus Christ himself, a group here would tear him down, wait...that's another thread! 1 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodo Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 The original poster may find this useful - as well as Mriya and Moz... I got the RA stuff around, where I went to several FTFs, and spent more more effort and money than necessary, before I ended up at Dave's flight school. Originally, I went to a country aero club, but at one point the aircraft was unserviceable for a couple of months, then was a bust up at the club and the instructor pulled out. I went to a commercial FTF, got back up to speed, and got used to the instructor, then the CFI took a permanent job elsewhere and dropped out. I went back to the country aero club, but had trouble getting enough lessons as the instructors were weekend only... At this point, I had put in several years, lots of money, and was getting very sick of the process, and considering throwing the whole thing in as a waste of time and money. As a sort of last resort I tried Dave's flying school, got back up to speed, got used to a new instructor. It took a while, as I think there was a faint suspicion that perhaps I was some sort of reject no one wanted to give a license to, so there was some trust to be earned....so more with Dave on top of a lot of hours with others. I finally got the certificate - in a lot of hours - but I'm still less than impressed with the RA set-up, and wouldn’t go that way in future. Dave's flying school was far more professional than the others. As far as further learning, the nav took a bit over the ten hour minimum (about 12-14 hours all up, I think). dodo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poteroo Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 When I read the title of this thread - it occurred to me that there would be some outrageous promotion of certain FTF's - but very little on the real costs/economics of the entire learning experience. What I'd hoped to see were real numbers being used, along with pertinent details of the aircraft, season, weather encountered, traffic density, and less on the 'good guys' warm and fuzzy stuff. The numbers begin to mean something if we are told that the training was completed in 2,3 weeks + we flew every day + it was winter and cool and clear every day + same instructor every flight + airstrip had choice of 2/4/6 runways + traffic was neg/light/mod/heavy + theory was already done/not done. I'm sure you get the pic. It's the total flying and 'aviation' experience, at the end of your achieving PC + PAX + XC which will determine your future flying success. I'm unconvinced that completing a PC, XC in just on/or under the minimum time is a great measure of a pilots' future success anyway. Perhaps they are more skilled, and perhaps they did pass a valid and comprehensive competency test - but that is only part of what makes for a safe pilot. happy days, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodo Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Good point, but it is asking a lot to get more than one line from most people. Especially if they had a good experience, they will have experience only one field, one instructor, always LH circuits and finished happy. It is only if you get messed around and have to go to several FTFs that you start to see a bit more. It is an expensive way to learn, but you do get more out of it and can then post a little more here. dodo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Sorry for expressing concerns. As I said, im biting my tongue as I dont wish to bash anyone in public. My concerns stem from too many pilots fronting up with "minimal" pre licence training (not a statement against yourself or dave, just a general statement). Parousal of log books soon shows up 'missing sequences, or short hand versions of very important flying sequences'. One log book I saw recently had a pilot doing area solo's with NO practice forced landings. Only cct emergencies. The pilot in question made the comment to me " Man, I hope I never have an engine give it up, cause im pretty sure id be 4@%!$@^" That pilot thought his training was top notch too, it was cheap, minimal hours..The instructor was a great guy...What could possibly go wrong? After watching his reactions to a simulated engine failure, i would have rated his chances of survival at slim to sweet bugga all. he also had some interesting ideas about how to recover a stall. Not surprising when the sum of his "stalling " training was about .7 of an hour. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nev25 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 What about Vic other than Horsham Woorayl air services near Leongatha are $170/h cheapest around here http://www.wooraylairservices.com.au/ I believe there is a Flying school in Tasmania that's $150/h Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Sorry for expressing concerns. As I said, im biting my tongue as I dont wish to bash anyone in public.My concerns stem from too many pilots fronting up with "minimal" pre licence training (not a statement against yourself or dave, just a general statement). Parousal of log books soon shows up 'missing sequences, or short hand versions of very important flying sequences'. One log book I saw recently had a pilot doing area solo's with NO practice forced landings. Only cct emergencies. The pilot in question made the comment to me " Man, I hope I never have an engine give it up, cause im pretty sure id be 4@%!$@^" That pilot thought his training was top notch too, it was cheap, minimal hours..The instructor was a great guy...What could possibly go wrong? After watching his reactions to a simulated engine failure, i would have rated his chances of survival at slim to sweet bugga all. he also had some interesting ideas about how to recover a stall. Not surprising when the sum of his "stalling " training was about .7 of an hour. Do you think this happens because some senior instructor/CFI's rely too heavily on the saying that a PC is just a permit to go and learn the art of flying. In most cases the punter lives long enough to learn enough to stay alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff13 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 OK I am going to have a little bit of input here. I have been a bit reticent to add my bit because I actually Think that the original poster asked a question that in my opinion was not the correct question for someone wanting to learn to fly. Although he/she did allude to the correct question in the explanation. What is the best value RA-Aus training in $ per hour Dual? Now although I understand the reason for the question I think it is irrelevant. Why? Flight training is a combination of Skills based training with a large amount of theory. I am not going to go into percentages or how it should be balanced, there are people far more experienced than me who can do that far better than me. Having taught theory and practical in trades based topics for several years, below is my opinion and only my opinion and an insight into my thought process in selecting an FTF and reflections on my decision 6 months down the track. Remember 6 months ago I could identify an airplane and call it a Cessna 90% of the time. I now have just under 150 hours of which 1/3 is dual with about 7 different instructors. Six months ago apart from a childhood dream and a 1 hour joyflight over Uluru in a Robinson R44, I had absolutely no light aircraft experience. I don't count the half a dozen parachuting flights that I did 35 years ago because I never actually landed in the plane in any of those. In short that joyflight as a 55 year old overweight (OK fat) man reignited my childhood dream to fly. So onto the net and do some research. In short at 127.00 kgs I was 20 kgs over the maximum seat weight for any of the affordable helicopters. I was also way to heavy for gliders in the places that I asked. That left me with fixed wing. Now in short RA-Aus provided the cheapest, quickest and simplest method of getting my fat a**e into the air. OK so being a genius and armed with all the info from the internet I proceeded to go searching for an FTF. Well a couple of TIF's and several visits to different schools later here is a summary of what I found. There will be no names and no locations except for the one I finally decided on. Remember I was 127 kgs. I was willing to travel as far as I needed to get what I wanted. And I was willing to pay a fair market rate, although how I intended to calculate what that was with all my amazing lack of knowledge is still beyond me. So to the TIF's and visits to FTF's. This really was probably the hardest part of learning to fly. From my background, SAFETY was without doubt my highest priority. Secondly I love dogs, which means I am a social animal so atmosphere was my second priority. Third at 127 kgs I had to fit in the plane. Fourth it it wasn't going to be fun I wasn't going to stick it out most likely. And lastly was a fair price and a time frame that fitted me. I was on a time limit at first but that fell away mid training and now I am certain that I shall never stop learning so a time frame was probably really the silliest thing that I considered. I visited several schools over a large area. Below are some of my observations. A TIF that in my opinion in hindsight took off with the aircraft well over MTOW. That is based on my estimation of the pilots weight and a fair guess at the amount of fuel on board. Only after much googling after the event did I come to this conclusion. An instructor answering my question about my weight by saying mate if you can get in the seat we can teach you. By this stage I had developed a series of questions that were a test of the FTF's methodology rather than a quest for knowledge. You see I had decided that there were people out there who just wanted my money. An FTF that as I was walking towards their hanger a student(well I assume it was a student) who stormed past me shouting over their shoulder, I am paying you to teach me not to abuse me. Stick your bl**dy flying school. You get the drift there were others that seemed to have the skills and methodology but not the atmosphere and vice versa. Then I rode into CRA. I was on my bike dressed to ride and happened past the airfield so thought I would stop in. As it happens I probably picked the perfect day to drop in. So my initial question/test drew what to me was the perfect answer. Q. I am 125kgs (i had lost a bit by now) can you teach me to fly? A. From the bloke sitting casually in the corner who turned out to be the CFI, pointed out the window, in the plane with full tanks, that one over there with half tanks, this one with 30 litres, and the rest forget it. With that he wandered off to do a lesson or something. The rest of the people were so welcoming showing me the planes sitting me in them all basically trying them on for size. Can you picture a 125 kg man in full bike gear and boots trying to fit into a couple of Jabs and the Foxbat. Well surprisingly the Foxbat did fit and not only that but she was the one that apparently could take me the CFI and a tank full of fuel. Like I guess all students at this stage I wanted to know how long it would take to learn and how much. In hindsight they were the two silliest question that I think I asked. Looking back now the numbers in the book simply do not matter. they are just that. Numbers in a book. What matters is the quality of instruction. The safety culture. The variety of instructors as well as availability. The availability of the aircraft as well as variety which did not become important to me until later. The airfield and neighbouring airfields. Were they able to work in with my timeframe. Was my timeframe realistic? I can give you the figures straight from my log book but really they do not matter. What took me hours to master may take someone else minutes. On the other hand what took me minutes may take someone else hours. OK so a summary. My Solo came up in three weeks My Pilots certificate in 8 weeks of which the school was closed for a couple of weeks. My Pax endo a week later. And my Xcountry a further 6 weeks of which the plane was off the road for 3 weeks. During this period I was flying 3 to 4 days a week with 2 flights/lessons on most days. Luckily or then maybe not, this was in South East Qld during the best time of year. As with all things there are positives and negatives. The positives of getting in and getting it done. I got into training/study mode very quickly and as a result found that revision time from one lesson to the next was minimal. I became very comfortable with the people and the equipment very quickly and as a result was confident in my training and learning. I got to know the airfield and the traffic patterns fairly well. The negatives I am still finding some of these. I thought that I had cross wind landings sorted. We did the theory and the practical, however there is was not that much wind during my training. I saw more wind in the last couple of weeks in the drifter than during my whole training. I solo'd on a runway that I had never used before that day. During my test thanks to a simulated engine failure I used that runway for only the second time on a very windy downwind no engine forced landing. That was fun not. But then I guess if the fan stops it is not going to ask you if this would be a suitable spot for it to happen. So YCAB for training. 4 runways. 12 and 30. 06 and 24 all grass with 30 being right hand circuits and probably about 25% of flying days using 30 so a fair variety. The two neighbouring airfields Caloundra and Redcliffe are both sealed so a bit of extra experience there. The training areas around Bribie island and the Glasshouse Mountains, it can't get much better than that. And we have some higher altitude fields within range during the Navs to give a feel for the effect of that as well. In summary I feel that I received excellent value for money in a safe and friendly environment and am glad that I chose to learn where I did. To follow up they have a good range of aircraft to fly and for continuing training. Cost in Dollars per hour I think was invaluable but to put a figure on it from $170 to $200 depending on aircraft. What would I do differently if I had the chance to do it all over again? I would probably chose to learn in a tailwheel. When I started I didn't even know what that was and certainly had no idea that it would be more difficult than a nose wheel. Remember I picked the Foxbat because it fitted me. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyflyer Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 What about Vic other than HorshamWoorayl air services near Leongatha are $170/h cheapest around here http://www.wooraylairservices.com.au/ I believe there is a Flying school in Tasmania that's $150/h The old proverb "you get what you pay for" comes to mind. Better aircraft cost more money, good servicing and keeping aircraft in good condition costs more money, paying professional instructors costs more money, good facilities cost more money. It's about value for money not the cheapest hourly rate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nev25 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 The old proverb "you get what you pay for" comes to mind. Better aircraft cost more money, good servicing and keeping aircraft in good condition costs more money, paying professional instructors costs more money, good facilities cost more money. It's about value for money not the cheapest hourly rate. Absolutely but as someone pointed out previously there are some who will milk you for the extra buck At the end of the day its still the same certificate 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 I disagree. There can be a huge diff in the certificate your issued. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Do you think this happens because some senior instructor/CFI's rely too heavily on the saying that a PC is just a permit to go and learn the art of flying. In most cases the punter lives long enough to learn enough to stay alive. Possibly mate. Pretty scary. It certainly is true, but a standard must be reached and demonstrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nev25 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 I disagree. There can be a huge diff in the certificate your issued. Is there ?? I'm tipping yours says exactly the same as everyone else's I digress Another way of looking at it I'm a trained and accredited sports coach I offer my services to others that want to be coached for free Why because I love the chosen sport and want to see others excel and numbers increase Does this mean the next coach that is charging $$$$$ any better coach than me?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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