planedriver Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 Aviation is, or at least should be, a vital necessity within a huge country like Australia and yet so many airports are being removed off the map. Privatisation is an absolute curse, and seems only to be fodder for greedy developers. Sadly this is occurring all around the country and there seems to precious little to stop it. The other day I drove through Bankstown Development Park, which has for decades been a fine local Bankstown Airport in the Sydney basin. The size of the warehouses there have to be seen to be believed. Some are that big that you could almost make the runways on their roofs, and i'm not kidding. This is so sad to see, yet one can't help but feel that with such reduced manouvering space, a repeat of what happened at Melbourne's Essendon Airport when a King Air had problems and the area where the pilot may have been able to put down safely, was now filled with an industrial development, and the outcome turned out to be catasrosphic., It is hoped that all events go according to plan, but sooner, or hopefully very much later, that may not be the case. Hoxton Park and Schofields also went to developers in the same way, and from what I hear Warnervale and The Oaks have also been in the firing line. Greedy bastards! The value of emergency ops for fire fighting, law enforcement,medical evacuations, etc; etc; to mention just a few, do not even seem to be taken into consideration. It seems way beyond what common sense should dictate. If regional flights were hoped to operate from there, the clearance is likely to to be "cleared for take-off, warehouse 16 left. What can be done to put the brakes on this? I'm buggered if I know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 Most of those Sydney airports are Under the Badgeries Creek airport umbrella. And probably will cease all operations shortly. spacesailor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 1 hour ago, spacesailor said: Most of those Sydney airports are Under the Badgeries Creek airport umbrella. And probably will cease all operations shortly. spacesailor I prefer optimism - The Oaks will survive somehow - I may be wrong but I think its the last privately owned active airstrip, open to the flying public, in the Sydney Basin. Rumour has it, that being a 2nd WW training strip, it is under some sort of heritage listing. True no lasting protection against cashed up developers but this and the propensity to flooding, at its north end, may make them think twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planedriver Posted March 30, 2021 Author Share Posted March 30, 2021 Lets hope so Skippy. Badgerys Creek is not supposed to open until about 2026. Hopefully Bankstown will last till then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 BUT How can it operate adjacent to that Big airport flight path ?. Spacesailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossK Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 Bankstown is closer to Kingsford Smith than it is to Badgerys Creek. The Oaks is 25km away from Badgerys Creek, so hopefully far enough. Riddell, Penfield and Melton are all about that to Tullamarine. The lowering of class C may be an issue for The Oaks though. likely to come down to 2500 - which would be more of a problem for Camdens training area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 The Oaks has the Camden airfield flightpath right over the to of it. spacesailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 I believe that the training area, which could be used by both Camden and The Oaks will be south of Burragorang Road and west of the Hume Hwy down to about Tahmoor. I can see a lot of fixed wing training moving out of Bankstown to Camden, but that depends on the infrastructure support that Sydney Metro Airports gives to Camden. The Oaks airfield is on a flood plain and after the recent flood along the Nepean/Hawkesbury system I can't see the local council approving any residential or industrial building on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailer Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=762135198189114&id=100057602921286 This explains plenty on the subject and is an issue across the country. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 Shrinking airports are a Planning issue, not an Aviation issue, and not an emtional issue or aviation need issue or any one of the hundreds of reasons those pleading to retain their airports use. Most failures are an abandonment of Existing Use Rights, which if included in a submission to the Council and the Civil Administration Tribunal, would have secured the airport, because no matter what Planning Application is made, the Applicant cannot overturn Existing Use Right. However, first someone, not necessatily the owner has to make an Objection to the Council. Regardless of the Council decision, that Objection entitles the Objector to be heard at the CAT and the CAT will preserve Existing Use Right. In about 70% of the cases I'm aware of, none of the flying members, or even the airport owner made submissions - and the airport was gone. Clever developers hire planning Consultants who use a very successful mechanism, and most Councils have used this mechanism over and over again successfully when they want to do the impossible (such as shift a football club). A Community Consultation is called by the Council or at the request of the developer, and attended at times by fifty hostile flyers and any independent airport owner, because "Hey, it's just a talk, and isn't going to do any harm" (I avoid 90% of Community Consultations because that's often where you lose). At the CC the Council or Developer outline their plans for Employment or Affordable Housing assuring everyone it won't affect the airport, and produce an Airport Master Plan, which the Council says will allow everyone to have their say, closing time 60 days. The flyers see all its faults and get together and say something like "We can win this!" and they all embrace the Master Plan ("isn't this what big companies do?"), furiously writing down all the logical reasons why its wrong, or like most cases, don't think it will do any harm so don't bother making a submission. Without any further notice, the Airport Master Plan appears on the Agenda the day before the meeting, and on the night the discussion is usually "Item 27, Airport Master Plan, anyone wish to speak" There's no response and then "All in favour" and the vote is usually passed unanimously. The Councillors know it doesn't matter what's in the Master Plan, it is now the Planning Status of the Airport. Existing Use Rights have been extinguished, Tick. The Airport has been given away by the aviators, and either the airport is closed, or made untenable by the rotors after several years of development. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackc Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 Sadly it’s all true 🙂. Saving Bankstown now would be akin to trying to save the Titanic if it was equiped with bilge pumps from a 12ft tinny😞 Start making plans that don’t include Bankstown…….. The man with the nuts and bolts shop goes and buys a truck, sets it up like the Snap On Tools business model and he travels to various airports flogging his wares. A maintenance facility looks to move to another airport, same as any aviation business and considers NOTHING will change at Bankstown………the ship has sailed and it ain’t coming back 😞 The big time corporates have got what they wanted and it’s the end of an Aviation era, sad but true……. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thruster88 Posted July 6, 2022 Share Posted July 6, 2022 With the rising interest in STOL and bush planes shrinking airports should not be a problem. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackc Posted July 6, 2022 Share Posted July 6, 2022 I have just had a steaming argument with AOPA over this very subject, suffice to say that in some cases they are giving CPR to a dead whale, expecting it to spring back to life. BIG money dictates the future. Other plans have to be made or some GA people will be parking their Lear Jets in their home driveways 😞. I am no longer a member, as I have nothing to contribute that AOPA will listen to……. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 6, 2022 Share Posted July 6, 2022 1 hour ago, jackc said: I have just had a steaming argument with AOPA over this very subject, suffice to say that in some cases they are giving CPR to a dead whale, expecting it to spring back to life. BIG money dictates the future. Other plans have to be made or some GA people will be parking their Lear Jets in their home driveways 😞. I am no longer a member, as I have nothing to contribute that AOPA will listen to……. AOPA should be submitting to the Councils and Tribunals on every airfield under threat. Owner members need representation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted July 6, 2022 Share Posted July 6, 2022 If Only Raa whent back to those ever so humble beginnings. The ' shrinking airPorts 'wouldn,t be a problem. SO The Raa problem is trying to be a cheap VH Members club. How many ' rag&tube ' flyers need an " Airport ". spacesailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackc Posted July 6, 2022 Share Posted July 6, 2022 28 minutes ago, turboplanner said: AOPA should be submitting to the Councils and Tribunals on every airfield under threat. Owner members need representation. And the Aviation community need to put their shoulders to the wheel, too. AOPA’s skills of negotiation need to change too, some of the videos are a bit much for me, by all means say throw away lines in the right circumstances are OK, but you never know who gets to see those videos in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackc Posted July 6, 2022 Share Posted July 6, 2022 9 minutes ago, spacesailor said: If Only Raa whent back to those ever so humble beginnings. The ' shrinking airPorts 'wouldn,t be a problem. SO The Raa problem is trying to be a cheap VH Members club. How many ' rag&tube ' flyers need an " Airport ". spacesailor BEFORE RAA would be even better, in some ways…….progress has not been kind to us…… 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 At least we had hope way back. I still have a (faded) AUF cap. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 24 minutes ago, facthunter said: At least we had hope way back. I still have a (faded) AUF cap. Nev There's a bit of cross-pollination going on in this thread with people complaining about categories they will never use. Airports will be critical for most pilots who fly GA or do Cross Country Flying, and for complying RA arcraft and Qualified Pilots. Airfields will be critical for most pilots who fly GA, do Cross Country and also fly round in the airfield district and for RA aircraft and pilots. Paddocks can be useful for some GA aircraft and pilots and some RA aircraft and pilots. There is nothing to stop you, FH, building up a basic ultralight and towing it to a nearby paddock behind your old Indian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackc Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 Turbs, your last line says it all but I would be doing it…….behind a Landcruiser 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 Just now, jackc said: Turbs, your last line says it all but I would be doing it…….behind a Landcruiser 🙂 The point is there's no restriction to finding a location and type of aircraft, but EVERYONE has to defend their turf, not just leave it to someone else. If there's a central reason for shrinking Airports/Airfields/paddocks it's the owners and pilots. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackc Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 Yep, the general Australian attitude, no worries mate as I have a fridge full of grog, a colour TV that runs and if it doesn’t there is always Hardly Normal and After Pay 🙂. There is only a problem when the Brewery has gone broke, the fridge blew up and Hardy Normal is out of business and can’t get new TV. Party is over 😞. Just like the airfields no one wants to fight for 😞 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Student Pilot Posted July 11, 2022 Share Posted July 11, 2022 On 8/7/2022 at 12:01 AM, turboplanner said: The point is there's no restriction to finding a location and type of aircraft, but EVERYONE has to defend their turf, not just leave it to someone else. If there's a central reason for shrinking Airports/Airfields/paddocks it's the owners and pilots. The main reason for shrinking airports is privatisation leading to greed 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 11, 2022 Share Posted July 11, 2022 1 hour ago, Student Pilot said: The main reason for shrinking airports is privatisation leading to greed I just pulled the data on the 17 airports I could find listed on 99 year Commonwealth leases. They said there were 22 by 2003, so five are missing from the names attached. The first of the leases started in 1997. The annual movement figures for Moorabbin Airport are interesting: 1966: 300,000 1971: 208,268 1983: 238,200 1997: 363,100 2022: 295,000 The biggest issue I've found is that because the airports are on Commonwealth land, Logal Government Planning Schemes don't apply, and some lessees have been siting Industrial and Commercial activites in locations which would not be allowed by the Council under their Planning Scheme. WX00200.xlsx 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 11, 2022 Share Posted July 11, 2022 That's exactly the situation with Essendon. the local council couldn't stop what's happened there. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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