Guest SAJabiruflyer Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 In this weeks edition of our local paper, there is a letter complaining about noise produced by aircraft. I feel this letter needs to be addressed and I am going to write back in response, but in a calm rational and factual manner. Some points raised in the gentleman's letter show a lack of aviation knowledge - eg he mentions an incident "accident" on a private airstrip about which he can find no official record of investigation, implying that the incident was covered up. He also calls for aircraft to be fitted with mufflers on their exhausts, and expresses concern at the number of privately owned airstrips in the area. I also intend on inviting a local journalist up for a flight, with a view to him writing a positive story on aviation in our area, and I might go so far as to invite the author of the letter for a flight too. Your thoughts, comments and feedback would be appreciated, and help me to formulate my reply. :) Safe flying Aviation Noise Letter 100dpi.pdf Aviation Noise Letter 100dpi.pdf Aviation Noise Letter 100dpi.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdarby Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Point out that without the local strips, we loose a training ground for local pilots, we stop local kids dreaming of becoming pilots, and end up with non local pilots flying us around in airliners. Basically make it about the future of his kids and he will be on your side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shags_j Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Quick question: I heard once that the high noise from aircraft wasn't the engine per se but the propeller ends constantly breaking the speed of sound. I have absolutely no evidence of this but if that is true, this guy doesn't know anything. Has anyone run a rotax 912 without a prop attached? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cficare Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 i reckon you have about as much chance of getting him in an aircraft as i have of recieving a 'gong' for services to the Rec Flying website! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne T Mathews Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 i reckon you have about as much chance of getting him in an aircraft as i have of recieving a 'gong' for services to the Rec Flying website! It could happen though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hongie Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 @ shags.... Never heard a rotax without prop, but I've seen videos of electric planes, and when flying esp on takeoff, sound much the same as a piston a/c. So yes, I believe it's tip noise. No basis excepting my own observation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 (a) What has been the behaviour on these strips? Are the guys flying professionally? If so the circuit pattern, departure and approach patterns need to be explained, and possibly fly neighbourly agreements reached. (b) Was the crash an RAA aircraft? If so no report would be public, so no concern, and you would use covers as a gentle restraint as against chains and dogs. SAJAB, you've got a guy to talk to so my suggestion on strategy, before getting into the local media which has seen his story first, is to ask him if you can come and hear what his concerns are. And let him pour them out. No excuses, No trying to take him up, No explaining it's just a few bad eggs, just letting him get the whole story out, and taking notes so you can follow up, THEN get back to him. This is right up my alley, I know where he's coming from and I know the power his position has, so some walking on eggshells work is required. PM me if you want some help. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 G'day SAjab. Sorry to hear your having similar problems to us. Contact me via PM, and talk to tubz. Try not to dissclose too much on the public forum, I made that mistake recently and some of my post's and others, appeared in a letter to council from our opponents. Be weary mate... cheers 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 I would contact the guy directly and find out what his problem is. It could just be one noisy plane annoying him, you never know. Rate payers associations are universally unpopular with local councils as they tend to complain about everything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 G`Day SaJab, A similar issue arose at Pioneer Valley holiday ranch,when the " Far North Queensland Ultralight Association" were flying from there. A new neighbour across the road decided he was going to stop everyone from flying there so his first arguement was the noise factor ,( Long story and it actually went to court ), so some of the club members sat by the road side with decible meters, and low and behold, most of the trafic going by made far more noise than the aircraft! In this particular case, because the strip had been there for many years and it was part of the holiday ranch, it was argued that the ranch had to have vehicular access. The final ruling was that the strip could continue to be used but only for access to the ranch so we would fly in, say G`Day Wayne ( Owner, loved Ultralights) but we couldn`t have fly-ins or do continuous circuits there anymore. As you`ve asked for feedback!...If you can`t come to some amicable solution,explore every legal avenue available to you!...Be carefull with the wording in letters to the paper, as they may work against you. Taking a local jurno flying is a good idea, provided all goes well and they do like it....I took up a lady jurno from the Cairns post, years ago and got a good positive article in the paper. Frank. Ps, Not long after I started my flying school, ( Officially approved by CASA ), I found out that my neighbour was going to take up a local petition and try to stop me flying. I went and sat down with him, had a good discussion, offered to take him flying, he took up the offer and still likes to come up. I also take up any of the local neighbours or anyone else who likes to come up with me....... Problem solved. We must make every attempt to have a good public immage, but never allow anyone to stop us flying,simply because they object! 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 On some aircraft the propeller is the major source of high noise level because (as has been stated) the prop tips become supersonic. Things like C-185's etc. I doubt that any U/L that I can think of would run a prop at supersonic speed. The Rotax and Jabiru are not particularly noisy in normal form and would not show up on a meter as being a big problem. Farri's approach can often work. Some individuals get a real bee in their bonnet about aircraft noise or aircraft flying over their houses, which can almost amount to a paranoia. Motorcross bikes have a similar problem and have a time of use limit in a lot of areas. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guernsey Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 It is illegal to fly over anyones property below 500ft without their permission unless you are approaching or departing an airfield, I assume this also means Authorised Landing Areas ALA's so if this is the case are the strips on Hindmarsh Island authorised? Alan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastmeg2 Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Prior to seeing the low level aerobatics displays at Oshkosh I wouldn't have believed that any single engine prop aircraft could make so much noise. I had to block my ears at times, even though I was hundreds of meters from the runway they were flying over. I'm sure they could get better performance with quieter props and don't think generating that much noise can be a net positive for the sport IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SAJabiruflyer Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Thankyou all for your replies so far, it is appreciated and will help me. I'm not going to reply or contact the gentleman without discussing it with key stakeholders first, including the airport owner. It's just an issue that I feel strongly about and so would like to do something positive to help. And that may well end up being doing nothing, and letting others with more experience "take up the fight" with me remaining in the background. Safe flying everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deskpilot Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 He should be thankful he doesn't have Chris Spiru practising aeros over head. Boy his plane is noisy. Chris operates out of Murray Bridge, a mere 10 minutes from Goolwa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 I'm not going to reply or contact the gentleman without discussing it with key stakeholders first, including the airport owner. It's just an issue that I feel strongly about and so would like to do something positive to help. That is the correct thing to do first! Frank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarly Gnu Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Aircraft noise complaints are handled by Air Services Australia, not sure he would get that far with them. I also think the high revving Rotax engines sound a bit unpleasant, like a rice burner from the 70's. Would the guy be complaining if folks were running radial engines or Merlin V-12's? (OK I admit one of my less practical contributions here). In general the most pleasant man-made sounds = large radial engine, rocket engine, turbofan spooling up. Pick your preferred propulsion source Mr complainer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Deskpilot and Gnarly Gnu, I'm not sure you meant to convey an image for this airfield which is almost in the town, of Chris Spyrou's prop noise, Merlin V12's and screaming rice burners blasting away day after day, but I can visualise those graphic details and so can a Tribunal Chairperson down the track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 ... I'm sure they could get better performance with quieter props and don't think generating that much noise can be a net positive for the sport IMHO. Noise is certainly becoming a big issue for aerobatic pilots here and has been for a while in the USA.The USA FAA has established 65 DNL as a minimum guideline for residential incompatibility - refer their regs part 150. The sort of low level aerobatic flying that I generally do these days is consistent with some measurements done by the US DOT: "The estimated DNL of a single, daytime aerobatic routine was less than 42 dB (A) for all three aircraft at all measurement positions. Even when multiple daytime routines were considered (up to 50 identical routines), the estimated DNL values due to any of the aerobatic routines never exceeded 60 dB(A) DNL directly below the practice box, 56 dB(A) DNL 1/4 mile away from the center of the practice box, or 46 dB(A) DNL one mile away." Flying more serious competitions or practicing for a display in the Pitts I would be lower with higher noise. I typically run at 2500 rpm but some guys with C/S props run them at redline so, coupled with the higher airspeeds of the powerful monoplanes, will have much higher noise from the bigger prop with its higher tip speed. Fixed pitch props in a Pitts or DR-107 are typically run over 3000 rpm which will be extremely noisy. European aerobatics is much more highly regulated wrt noise so run smaller diameter props - more blades usually to get the blade area required to absorb the horsepower - noticeably less performance. Certainly a factor in competition performance at World Championship level. The locals need to be careful that they are not run out of town. As for airshow aerobatics - that is business, especially for those guys and gals at Oshkosh - second biggest spectator sport in the USA I've been told. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davidh10 Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Keep in mind that you cannot control what a journo will write and in this situation, the war between advocates and detractors could sell more column inches than a feel good story. I'd stay away from the media. Clearly the person has written in his capacity of Chairman of the Ratepayers Assoc., so he may not even be the one with the disaffection. He is possibly acting on a motion created by some disaffected person and a few hangers on, plus some who wouldn't complain in their own right. Two things are evident from the letter:- Someone is annoyed, but has insufficient evidence to do anything, so they are publicly fishing for other disaffected residents to provide subjective evidence. They have not taken the obvious step of talking with the Goolwa aerodrome operator, or he'd either not have written or complained about the discussion. In looking at the Goolwa Aerodrome web site, I notice they run meat bombs, and sell Jet-A1, Avgas and PULP. There's a flight school there, warbirds, powered parachutes, bi-plane rides, so they would be doing constant circuits and it sounds like a busy aerodrome. In fact on the hire / fly page it has Sportstars and Jabirus for hire, just call Ed Herring. As Ed is the RAA Board member for SA, you could discuss it with him. I'm sure you would get some excellent guidance. Maybe there isn't a real complaint but he has been forced to write a letter through a motion. I've seen that happen before, where one person gets support for their proposition because everyone else is too weak willed to dissent. He seems to also focus on the Hindmarsh Island aerodrome as well. The first step has to be to understand their point of view and decide whether there is a real issue or not. Don't jump in on the defensive. They need help to solve their problem, whatever that may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davidh10 Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Is this your complainant? Perhaps, he has found some more people he can pursuade to join him, when he received no satisfactory response previously. Here's a photo of two aircraft alleged to have been low flying over his property. He claims that "permanent residents at his end of Hindmarsh Island have previously complained... Maybe the businesses already know the history? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Just check out what sort of aircraft are supposedly making the noise. Much as I like aeroplanes I get really pissed off when a helicopter comes over at low height and low speed. The noisiest fixed wing will be gone very quickly but choppers go on and on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeadInTheClouds Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 A Foxbat? Really? Noise? Half the time when a Foxbat flys right over my house I don't even notice unless I see it it's that darned quiet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Oh looking at the link to the flikr from DavidH above... 'They do not have permission or change of land use for this venture'... Looking at google maps, it appears the airfield has grass runways, as far as I know, they do not need any permission at all for such an airstrip as they did not actually build anything. Land zones have no effect as it effectively hasn't been built on and is still a paddock. Therefore it would appear they are completely with in their rights to have an airstrip. Would my understanding be correct? Not necessarily Iggy the "use" is an airfield at the moment, would depend on the planning scheme for HI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 You do NOT need a change of use permit to use a portion of your land for the taking off and landing of aircraft on your own property for your own use. Start building hangers and inviting others is inviting trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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