alf jessup Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Interesting report Sue, Sadly he took his mate with him but his mate also contributed to his own demise by going with him. Accident waiting to happen and it did. Alf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davidh10 Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 ...I read an article that was writen in an American Ultralight magazine and it stated that whenever flying an Ultralight over timbered country a long rope should always be carried so that in the event of an engine failure the aircraft could be put down on top of a tree and the rope would be needed to get down from the tree!...I wonder if whoever gave that advice tried it out first? Frank. Perhaps the instructions were incomplete... maybe you were supposed to set the aircraft to circle down, while you climb down the rope! In my training there was a lot of emphasis on always knowing where you would land if the engine stopped. Any time you didn't expect it, the question would come.. "Ok, where would you land right now?" Lots and lots of simulated engine failures (three during my licence test). One continued to 20' AGL between trees, before being told "Ok. Power up. Away we go" (The CFI has a low flying permission with several farmers). Also some interesting precautionary searches, one of which contained obstacles that were not visible until late final. I'd have to say there was a lot of emphasis on emergency management. Most of the time, I fly so as to have a glide to a likely looking field. If coming up to tiger country, I look for cleared areas like farm land and adjust altitude and course to give better options, but not exclusively to glide clear. Each time there is no glide to a clear area available, I make a conscious decision as to whether I will divert, increase altitude, or take the increased risk of flying over it. The equation has changed a bit recently with all the flooding that has occurred, as so much of the farm land has been either under water or sodden, meaning a forced landing would be likely to end in a roll-over, either because you are effectively landing on water (even if it is only inches deep) or ground in which the front wheel will bog. In a recent flight between Wentworth and Hay, at least a third of the flight was over flooded fields. It looked like an inland sea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 ......Turboplanner, I was taught to try and pancake it into the tree tops if the cover is thick enough, if not go for a ridge as there tends to be more open space, or valley floors. But what are the thoughts on this, if you engine goes kaput in the middle of the tigers what do people recommend as the best approach for dumping the aircraft onto the turf? Farri you sound like you've been flying a long time, any thoughts on the best procedure for putting down in such a situation?........ Louis, Basic physics applies to the probability of survival in any impact fundamentally due to the rate of deceleration. Hit an immoveable rock wall at 50 knots and the deceleration forces are likely to instantly kill you. Hit a grove of trees at 50 knots and as long as the trees don't stop you at the point of impact and decelerate you over a few metres, you may survive. Lets take a practical example you are flying over heavily timbered country with a large tree canopy and the fan stops .... your probability of survival will depend on both skill and luck. Your skill will determine at what speed you eventually impact e.g. will you drop all flap and hold off until you stall just at the point of contact with the tree canopy or will you pancake on with a few knots up your sleeve to control the flare. Remember one thing ... the impact forces go up by the square of the speed ... that means that if your impact speed is say 50 knots, the impact forces will be 4 times greater than the impact forces at say 25 knots ... double the speed of impact and you quadruple the impact (deceleration) forces. The luck factor will be whether or not there a is a big branch pointing at you just under the canopy that spears you or not. So if you happen to be flying an Auster and use full flap you could hold off to 25 knots into the canopy (slower than a drifter can fly), if you are in a C150 with 40 degrees of flap 39 knots into the canopy, a Cherokee six with full flap, probably 50 Knots. You work out which aircraft you would rather be in over tiger Country when the fan stops. The other luck factor is whether or not you survive the jump from the aircraft in the tree canopy to the ground, that has killed a few before. That is why I like my Auster ... nice and slow but sure ... LOL An engine failure over rough sparsely timbered tiger country worries me a lot more than an engine failure over a tight rainforest tree canopy. Make sure you turn your Epirb on before impact though, in case you get badly injured and cannot activate it after impact. Of course I am ever so thankful that I am NOT talking from experience here. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted April 12, 2012 Author Share Posted April 12, 2012 I was taught to try and pancake it into the tree tops if the cover is thick enough, if not go for a ridge as there tends to be more open space, or valley floors. But what are the thoughts on this, if you engine goes kaput in the middle of the tigers what do people recommend as the best approach for dumping the aircraft onto the turf? Farri you sound like you've been flying a long time, any thoughts on the best procedure for putting down in such a situation? Louis, Thank you for asking but I don`t like giving short answers as they tend to create more questions than answers and there is no short answer to your question because there are many variables but I can tell you without a doubt that I do have many thoughts on the subject and I`ll simply point out some of the variables. My first thought! Don`t put yourself into that situation, in the first place! With all the engine failures that I`ve had, I`ve never had to do a landing into " Tiger Country " and most of those who have, arn`t here to tell you how to do it! When we talk about Tiger Country, what type of country are we talking about? It`s not all the same! To me, "Tiger Country" is anywhere, where a safe landing is not possible. When we talk about " Dumping the aircraft onto the turf " (your words not mine) what are we talking about and what type of aircraft is going to be "Dumped"?...As an example! There is a big difference between, a WB Drifter, a Trike and a Jabiru! How strong is the wind and from which direction is it coming from? Can the aircraft be landed into wind? How skillful is the pilot who is doing the the landing? Is the pilot panic stricken?..Simply flying the aircraft requires less skill than landing it with a dead engine, successfully into rainforest or any other area that`s not suitable for a safe landing. Anyone who understands the consequences of flying over country where a forced landing is most likely to be fatal, does so having accepted the risk. I won`t give any advice to anyone on how best to land any aircraft onto terain that isn`t suitable for a safe landing. Frank 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Hamilton Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 To a large extent, you make your own luck in aviation. The better you do it , the luckier you become. Folks, A man for whom I have great respect, and long time ICAO Air Safety guru, Captain Dan Maurino, [Captain Dan Maurino. Coordinator, Flight Safety and Human Factors Programme - ICAO] has been heard to say, again and again: "All accidents are human factors accidents" In short, all accidents have a cause, and there will be a human input that caused, or could have prevented, the event called an accident. Remember, "Air Safety is No Accident". Cheers, Bill Hamilton 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shags_j Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 I was in the US a few years ago and noticed that a lot of there sport aircraft had BRS chutes. And yet you don't see that many here. Shafs: I originally learned to fly at the school that is also the Cirrus distributor. All Cirrus come with BRS. One thing I noticed with this is that all the CIrrus pilots would talk about things that happened in their aircraft (as pilots tend to do). And every time an issue occured in the aircraft (ie. fan stopped) their first reaction is to pull the chute. I actually don't think a BRS is necessary at all (maybe if you lose a wing ) and can create complacency in pilots. Could be wrong of course. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted April 13, 2012 Author Share Posted April 13, 2012 Shafs: every time an issue occured in the aircraft (ie. fan stopped) their first reaction is to pull the chute. I actually don't think a BRS is necessary at all (maybe if you lose a wing ) and can create complacency in pilots. Could be wrong of course. Shags, I have to agree!.. This is debatable but in my opinion, if a wing comes off, the chance of successfully deploying a BRS would be pretty slim! I`ve been asked more than once, " Where is your parachute?" My answer has been and still is! " My wings and the parachute is already open". I`ve had enough engine failures to know that a BRS is not needed, in case the engine stops! What is need, is a safe place to land. Everyone chooses their own level of safety by the way they fly. Frank 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shafs64 Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 I would also agree that the BRS is not needed for engine failures you should always have a place to land. The SR22s are very popular in the US and here and there has been a lot of people reaching for the chute handle when they go IFR and loose there engine over tiger country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 As Farri says, the best parachute (your wings) is already deployed. Controlling the aircraft into an impact with vegetation may be preferable in some circumstances to firing your BRS rocket. I have a BRS but it is only for extreme situations, such as structural or control failure. Once the rocket is fired, you surrender control over where you land; arriving at over 7m/sec can cause serious injury. That is why the aircraft is meant to hang nose-down from the 'chute so that the UC and front end absorb much of the crash. I have heard of a pilot sustaining spinal injuries when his low-wing plane descended under a BRS and hit water. Lyle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 I read an article that was writen in an American Ultralight magazine and it stated that whenever flying an Ultralight over timbered country a long rope should always be carried so that in the event of an engine failure the aircraft could be put down on top of a tree and the rope would be needed to get down from the tree!...I wonder if whoever gave that advice tried it out first? Frank. This pilot could have done with a rope. He could not be rescued until others brought a rope for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted April 13, 2012 Author Share Posted April 13, 2012 Bugger! I wonder if he was embarrassed? I know a guy ( I know he wouldn`t mind me telling the story ) who got his WB Drifter tangled up in powerlines. Miraculously, the power lines stoped the aircraft from crashing to the ground but they stretched, allowing one wing to hit the ground, before the aircraft bounced back up and stayed there. Fortunately, there were other guys close by who quickly raced over, but all they could do was call for help and hold the end of the wing to keep the aircraft steady. There was fuel leaking down and the guy was concerned that it might catch fire, so in his panic, he decided to try and get out, but when he got his legs out from the nose pod, due to his age and size, he simply fell foward into his safety harness, with his legs hanging out bellow him and that`s how and where he stayed for over an hour before he was rescued. Had he been able to get his safety harness off, he would have fallen to the ground and we later learnt that he could have died from having all his weight in the safety harness, which was putting so much pressure on his chest. It all ended well and it didn`t put him off flying! He still flies regularly...This is yet another reminder to anyone who likes to fly at powerline height. Frank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 I keep getting the feeling that a lot of these fatal RAA crashes happen so quickly and unexpectedly that even the best pilots get caught out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 I read an article that was writen in an American Ultralight magazine and it stated that whenever flying an Ultralight over timbered country a long rope should always be carried so that in the event of an engine failure the aircraft could be put down on top of a tree and the rope would be needed to get down from the tree!...I wonder if whoever gave that advice tried it out first? Frank. Yet another pilot stuck in a tree for three hours . This kind of incident happens more often than you think. This is yesterday's one that happened in New Zealand: Paraglider freed from tree top JOHN EDENS IN QUEENSTOWN Last updated 05:00 19/04/2012 BLAIR PATTINSON/Fairfax NZ THREE HOURS UP A TREE: American speed flyer Cade Palmer. A paraglider walked away unscathed after he was trapped about 50 metres up a pine tree for more than three hours yesterday after a looping manouevre went wrong. The paraglider, American speed flyer Cade Palmer, crashed into a tree in the Ben Lomond reserve about 1pm, snagging his main chute and an emergency canopy at the top of a large pine tree north of the Queenstown Primary School playing fields. He was flying solo and privately. Eyewitness Mark Douglas, of Fernhill, was walking on Thompson St when he noticed a paraglider performing looping manoeuvres. Mr Douglas, who teaches at the Queenstown Primary School, said the paraglider performed "four or five full loops" when the main chute crumpled about halfway down the descent from Ben Lomond. "The chute collapsed, he disappeared from sight and we saw an emergency chute open. "He was going very quickly. "They don't normally loop unless they know what they're doing. He was doing one after another." Mr Douglas said he normally did not pay too much attention to paragliders but noticed the pilot yesterday because the manoeuvre was unusual. The paraglider was fortunate the emergency chute deployed and he landed in a tree, breaking the fall, he said. "As it collapsed it was a bit of a shock. It all happened so quickly. "I can remember saying, `Oh no, the chute's collapsed'. "He's lucky to be alive." At 2.30pm arborist Abe Laguna, a paraglider with previous experience of tree rescues, climbed the tree next to the trapped pilot. He strung a line between the trees, rigged a longer rope and a harness to the stranded pilot who was lowered to the ground unharmed about 4.30pm. Constable Jim Bagnell, of Queenstown, said staff from G Force Paragliding, the Kiwi Bird Park and St John arrived quickly and spoke to the pilot shortly after the crash. The pilot crashed into trees in the Kiwi Bird Park grounds. St John Queenstown team manager Alana Reid said the paraglider was uninjured on impact and paramedics were on standby during the rescue operation. Commercial and private paragliders and parapenters use the school playing fields as a landing site. Police had considered using a search and rescue alpine cliff team, including a helicopter equipped with a winch, if other rescue options proved unworkable. Source: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/6769826/Paraglider-freed-from-tree-top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz3g Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 Awesome thread guys, good on Farri for starting it up.On a purely technical note Shafs64 is correct. The most common cause of all fatal aircraft accidents is controlled flight into terrain and this is nearly always due to inclement weather or night (and hills being put in the wrong spot!). On the un-technical side I agree with others are saying, does it really matter what caused the accident, as each cause surely is a valid topic for exploration?... Hi Louis What engine do you have in the Arrow? I am an old glider pilot and I still tend to look from one suitable landing place to another as I fly. I also generally do tight circuits for GA and place myself where I can get to the field without needing power on base and final. That said, I do leave a trickle of power on for late final because it makes the arrivals a little tidier. When touring and doing longer distances, I'm somewhere in between. I fly straight lines but I try to plan over or near places I know have a suitable airfield. A few years back I did a trip around Central Australia and I stuck to established VFR routes rather than blazing my own trail. For example, on the Mt Isa to Tennant Creek leg, I loosely followed the Barkley Highway up to Camoweal-Barkley Homestead Roadhouse-Tennant Creek. From Tennant, I followed the Stuart Hwy closely all the way to the Alice and I'm glad I did because I had some engine problems (cracked plug insulator) on the way which raised my blood pressure. At least in the Auster we have a very low stall speed and can land slow with nose high inside our steel frame aeroplanes ... Should be able to walk away from most landings, eh? Kaz 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Moore Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 Hey Kaz, I am running an O-235 115hp in the J2. I have not as yet flown the Auster over to much timbered, vertical terrain. Why it flies nice an slow the J2 is flap less so that makes coming in super duper slow a little more challenging, as of yet I have only been brave enough to attempt a 45 knot approach under power. To be honest tough the main concern for me with the J2 and a prang is it's one of those wonderful designs where the fuel tank sits just above your knees. Have heard to many stories of survivable crashed becoming fatal after the engine made the fuel tank catch fire! All my rough terrain flying has been done in Cherokee's, Cessna's and a couple of different Grumman's! Guessing from what most people have said there is no hard and fast rules as to what approach is best when putting down in inclement terrain, which I consider as any type of terrain where it is known the aircraft will not escape without being damaged. That is that the there is no suitable landing choice for a safe landing where the aircraft would be flyable afterwards if not for the reason you where landing there in the first place! Touch wood I will never have try and give it a go myself!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 Catching fire after crashing is a real concern, the other one for me would be surviving the crash and bleeding out from my injury. If I had to land in tiger country I would be looking for a road anything to facilitate help arriving quickly enough to help me. The other ones are fuel blockages, engines failing to create full power (leaving carb heat on or forgetting to start fuel pump), maneuvering and landing accidents. Stall/spin in the circuit. There are all manor or ways an aircraft can catch you out. My tornados both have BRS yet 2 experienced instructors reckon they are dangerous, its unlikely you will want to deploy them as they will wreck your plane. I'll take my chances with my BRS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarly Gnu Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 I suggest getting yourself a Nomex (aramid) flight suit or pants at least. Can't hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 I suggest getting yourself a Nomex (aramid) flight suit or pants at least. Can't hurt. II hadn't heard of NOMEX before so I looked it up and it has good fire resistance properties. But there seems to be a down-side to everything as you can see: Unlike Kevlar, Nomex cannot align during filament formation and has poorer strength. It has excellent thermal, chemical, and radiation resistance. But Nomex is a meta-aramid, suitable for protection from fire; not a para-aramid, suitable for protection from bullets. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomex -what a shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 I always think flying in a sturdy pair of shoes is a good idea. Crash in the bush and you may have to walk to find help. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 II hadn't heard of NOMEX before so I looked it up and it has good fire resistance properties. But there seems to be a down-side to everything as you can see: Unlike Kevlar, Nomex cannot align during filament formation and has poorer strength. It has excellent thermal, chemical, and radiation resistance. But Nomex is a meta-aramid, suitable for protection from fire; not a para-aramid, suitable for protection from bullets. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomex -what a shame. What a shame? Sometimes I'm dumbfounded by the things I read on these threads, and this one headed, by the way, "AVOIDING the avoidable accident" meaning not actually having the accident reaches new heights. Nomex has saved hundreds, if not thousands of lives during its history in auto racing In fact with the right specification and undergarments you can survive a full split fuel tank race car fire for about 30 seconds, the main issue these days being to ensure you don't ruin it all by not covering the airways to prevent flames being inhaled into the lungs. Yet here we are with 2/5 of stuff all knowledge rubbishing this outstanding product.....that's the shame! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 What a shame?Sometimes I'm dumbfounded by the things I read on these threads, and this one headed, by the way, "AVOIDING the avoidable accident" meaning not actually having the accident reaches new heights. Nomex has saved hundreds, if not thousands of lives during its history in auto racing In fact with the right specification and undergarments you can survive a full split fuel tank race car fire for about 30 seconds, the main issue these days being to ensure you don't ruin it all by not covering the airways to prevent flames being inhaled into the lungs. Yet here we are with 2/5 of stuff all knowledge rubbishing this outstanding product.....that's the shame! I'm dumbfounded that a light-hearted comment about a product primarily used in auto racing received such an intemperate response. If something sharp broke off in the cockpit, Nomex clothing, so it appears, would give very little protection. It's a single-issue protection suit: pretty much for fire only. Seriously, TP, do you wear Nomex suits to avoid the avoidable accident? You wish to talk about the thread heading literally: Nomex will not avoid an accident so what was written by you above does not fit into that context. However, I grant that, should a fuel fire go through the "fire"-wall somehow, or start in the cabin, it may reduce injuries for some time. I cannot think of any way how Nomex attire can avoid the avoidable accident; it can only give some protection after the accident in the unlikely event that fire gets into the cockpit. The downside is that protection from accident-induced projectiles seems to be minimal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 I wouldn't see fire getting into the cockpit as an "unlikely event". There is bu**er all protection as regards an effective firewall and extinguishing system. You have fuel and oil at pressure under the cowl, and red hot exhaust, sparks etc. Any sort of structural deformation in a gyro or most ultralights will most likely, have fuel around as a consequence. What is the filler used in tanks of some race cars, to prevent fire? It works there,. Why not in planes? TP makes a good point about breathing in the burning fumes. Avoiding the avoidable does not seem to be too silly a concept. Avoiding the unavoidable seems more of a challenge. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Guys, don't kid yourselvs. Physics doesn't care. Physics doesn't stop to ask questions, it doesn't care if it's you, a firewall, a seat woteva, fire can and does engulf cockpits. If I were flying an aircraft where the fuel and the pilot occupy the same place then I wouldn't consider it without wearing fire protection. Not a chance. I think tubz may have this subject close to his heart and can understand why. Anyone who witnesses the speed at which physics an chemistry take hold and involve the human in it's relentless surge towards entropy, soon changes their views on this sort of thing. 20 seconds. If only we had had 20 seconds, at least one of the crew would have survived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyfox1 Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 My main concern is barbwire fences in my area the farmers are putting up a lot more fences shortening the paddocks for a safe forced landing area especially in the Drifter with no front protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz3g Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Hey Kaz,I am running an O-235 115hp in the J2. I have not as yet flown the Auster over to much timbered, vertical terrain. Why it flies nice an slow the J2 is flap less so that makes coming in super duper slow a little more challenging, as of yet I have only been brave enough to attempt a 45 knot approach under power. To be honest tough the main concern for me with the J2 and a prang is it's one of those wonderful designs where the fuel tank sits just above your knees. Have heard to many stories of survivable crashed becoming fatal after the engine made the fuel tank catch fire!....!! Are you an AAAA member? Ray Vuilerman writes some great articles on flying Tigers and Austers. The ability to keep the nose high in a TW aircraft adds a lot to the survivability. I have the main tank over my knees, too (and I sit above the other one). My full flap stall speed is lower of course, but not much from memory. They are a. Great aeroplane, aren't they? I am hoping to go to Scone the last weekend this month but am a bit doubtful of the weather. It's the annual Auster flyin if you can get there. Kaz The Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now