Jabiru7252 Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 So, nothing on the news this evening. Anybody know anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballpoint 246niner Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Ballpoint. We are feeling for all of you guys at the moment. Thanx for updating us all. If your up to it, a couple of questions.Was this an RAA or Ga Gazelle? Was she flying on a logged flightplan? I only ask because im curious how ATC could be sure which radar paint was hers without a code in a presumedly busy area. And I only ask for my own knowledge and educational value. Thanks Motz - you raise a good point I've been pondering over the last 24 hrs, running a flight school as well. Firstly the aircraft was RA-Aus registered and used by the owners, and a flight school for training and hire. Secondly to my my knowledge a flight plan as such was not formally lodged, and not required to be, but a verbal "flight note' was left with the operators of the aircraft. Thanks Motz for your comment- we've had a really rough 12 months up here- we live and fly in "God's country" and enjoy many thousands of hours of safe, enjoyable and productive aviation. For those visiting or new to the site I would like to re-iterate that recreational aviation is extremely safe, productive and enjoyable and when well managed in ALL aspects that relate to safety and well being; is safer than crossing the road- Literally. The BURDEN however lies on each of us to ensure ALL aspects of our activity are well managed from the aircraft, the environment, our required skils and our wellbeing. If ANY of these aren't right - DON'T FLY. 2 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Thanx av8rr. Im not sure about that, I would imagine it would be more arcaic than that, perhaps rewinding a recording of the screen info and tracking the flight from YCAB?. I dont know... Ballpoint. Like I said before, I am really feeling for you all. The family and friends of the pilot obviously come first, but I can only imagine how you guys from the school are feeling. Its the Instructors/ chiefs worst fear, and I dont think many can appreciate how heavily it weighs down on you, knowing people are relying on you and your decisions/ actions to stay alive both directly and indirectly. What ever the facts behind the accident, I am sure you guys are torturing yourselves with 'what if, what about...maybe this... maybe that... You poor buggas..:( I also know exactly what you mean by having bad year. We have had a shocker, and horribly, today was the one year anniversary of the fatal helicopter crash at our club. We laid some fresh flowers on the site and had a few quiet words, about this incident aswel. It wasnt a ceremony, more of a gathering of a couple of us that were there that day. Its easy to get caught up in negative thoughts of giving it all away...But then, as if on cue, a 182 came in and landed beautifully, and out popped 4 lovely people from tasmania.meeting them and hearing their stories and seeing the passion in their eyes really snapped me out of it. We are thinking about you all.. cheers 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Normoyle Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 All 1200 codes are the same, no extra info is available with the transponder, either position fixing from pilot report of position, squawk ident or other identification method, or squawked 7700. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballpoint 246niner Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Thanx av8rr. Im not sure about that, I would imagine it would be more arcaic than that, perhaps rewinding a recording of the screen info and tracking the flight from YCAB?. I dont know...Ballpoint. Like I said before, I am really feeling for you all. The family and friends of the pilot obviously come first, but I can only imagine how you guys from the school are feeling. Its the Instructors/ chiefs worst fear, and I dont think many can appreciate how heavily it weighs down on you, knowing people are relying on you and your decisions/ actions to stay alive both directly and indirectly. What ever the facts behind the accident, I am sure you guys are torturing yourselves with 'what if, what about...maybe this... maybe that... You poor buggas..:( I also know exactly what you mean by having bad year. We have had a shocker, and horribly, today was the one year anniversary of the fatal helicopter crash at our club. We laid some fresh flowers on the site and had a few quiet words, about this incident aswel. It wasnt a ceremony, more of a gathering of a couple of us that were there that day. Its easy to get caught up in negative thoughts of giving it all away...But then, as if on cue, a 182 came in and landed beautifully, and out popped 4 lovely people from tasmania.meeting them and hearing their stories and seeing the passion in their eyes really snapped me out of it. We are thinking about you all.. cheers Thanks mate, just to clarify- it wasn't our school, but we are all friends up here and very close. Even with a heavy heart, the magic of wings lifted me again today and every time I fly I feel priviledged, happy and amazed at the beauty of flight, the great people and awesome experiences it continues to bring, even amongst the down times- it is my love, my life and an absolute pleasure and priveledge to teach and share the skills and knowledge and joy with all who climb aboard next to me. The birds and the "Wrights" got it right!! 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultralights Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 When the Spot is activated its sent through the USA and global rescue agencies, using the American and European search satellite network who then forward all information and work with the Australian SAR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmick Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Saw the crash site on the ABC, damn lucky to find it. No fire just bits and pieces at the base of mature tree's. as I said earlier this was a local flight, crash Site was 14 nm from point of origin YCAB, not an XC just should have been an enjoyable comitment to aviation. Regards Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 So sad! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 So, nothing on the news this evening. Anybody know anything. I like that it hasn't been all over the news, this is the first incident that my mother hasn't rushed up to me to tell me all about it. I guess everybody has one in their family, but it gets a bit old when there is a bad run on, So nothing on the news is really a good thing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf jessup Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Condolences to the ladys family and friends, not the outcome we were all looking for and another sad day for us all RIP fellow flyer. Alf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Error404 Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 8 fatalities at YCAB in less than 12 months. Not very good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Unfortunatly our news sytem now is geared toward 24-48 hrs of interest. After the second day, unless it's really big, it becomes old news very quickly..............................................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmick Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Unfortunatly our news sytem now is geared toward 24-48 hrs of interest. After the second day, unless it's really big, it becomes old news very quickly..............................................Maj... If this was a car accident it probably wouldn't have got a mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballpoint 246niner Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 8 fatalities at YCAB in less than 12 months. Not very good! Technically 2- the dragon was not in the CTAF area and was an enroute accident( 6 people). Not good if it's even 1 agreed. 1 flight into non VMC, 1 fail to plan a successful glide and maintain airpeed following EF in cct area, 1 too fresh to know. Of the known 7 fatalities both of these scenarios have been well taught and documented for over 60 years. " Pilots don't find new ways of killing themselves". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabiru Phil Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Technically 2- the dragon was not in the CTAF area and was an enroute accident( 6 people). Not good if it's even 1 agreed.1 flight into non VMC, 1 fail to plan a successful glide and maintain airpeed following EF in cct area, 1 too fresh to know. Of the known 7 fatalities both of these scenarios have been well taught and documented for over 60 years. " Pilots don't find new ways of killing themselves". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabiru Phil Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Can't help but post a comment as I flew over Beerburrum enroute to Caloundra at 1500' last Thursday morning from S A. Plenty of pine forests on both sides of my course, small muddy paddocks only for engine failure. So sad to hear the terrible result. I wished I had more height but cloud was the limiting factor to stay VFR. Not a lot of options there I M H O RIP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil_S Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Extremely sad news. My condolences to the lady's family and friends..... Let's hope we hear quickly what the cause was so we can all learn from it. Neil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keenaviator Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 This will most likely be investigated by the police and probably assisted by RAAus and the report goes to the coroner and is not seen by anybody else. What I would like to know is why we cannot know what the findings are. Reasons like, 'it is not Police policy'or 'they are not allowed to' are unacceptable to me as this is a safety issue. The Coroner's finding will be available to the public - the Inquest Brief may even be available after the Coroner makes a finding through FOI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mriya Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Motz, aircraft was 24 Rego. As far as I know, ATC can still identify an individual aircraft even IF transponder is set to std VFR 1200 by a certain piece of code that is included.I am happy to be corrected if this is incorrect. The Mode C transmission protocol contains no individual aircraft data. As another forum response highlighted the only distinguishing features when using Mode C would be 'IDENT' if used or by squawking another code as opposed to the standard VFR OCTA 1200. Mode S however is a protocol which includes specific aircraft identification data. Most transponder equipped aircraft would currently be Mode C capable only, however given the various airspace equipment requirements being rolled out over the coming years, it would be short sighted to equip your new pride and joy with anything less than a Mode S transponder if you have to choose. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ave8rr Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 The Mode C transmission protocol contains no individual aircraft data. As another forum response highlighted the only distinguishing features when using Mode C would be 'IDENT' if used or by squawking another code as opposed to the standard VFR OCTA 1200. Mode S however is a protocol which includes specific aircraft identification data. Most transponder equipped aircraft would currently be Mode C capable only, however given the various airspace equipment requirements being rolled out over the coming years, it would be short sighted to equip your new pride and joy with anything less than a Mode S transponder if you have to choose. Thanks Mriya. It was mode S that I was thinking of as I new each aircraft rego is given a discreet Nr. I guess with Mode C then the fact the that the altitude being reported by the Gazelle transponder would of been able to be tracked due the sudden loss of altitude being reported to ATC. This would take some time to sort by ATC I guess but would identify the aircrafts rough posn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 And I believe that's how they narrowed the search area down to a relativly small area. A reasonably quick locate (approx 24hrs) without any PLB signal....Well done AMSA, in my opinion........................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballpoint 246niner Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 And I believe that's how they narrowed the search area down to a relativly small area. A reasonably quick locate (approx 24hrs) without any PLB signal....Well done AMSA, in my opinion........................Maj... Glide distance arc from a verified 800 ft AGL with 8:1 glide ratio makes for a small area in relative terms, we scanned the area earlier that morning before the search grids were established and late when they weren't active in the area- the real talent for these guys is how they actually spot wreckage, it really was a pin in a (pine) needle stack- they truly are very talented at their jobs. Only three pine trees had about 10' knocked from their tops, it would have been so hard to spot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head in the clouds Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Glide distance arc from a verified 800 ft AGL with 8:1 glide ratio makes for a small area in relative terms....... I'm certainly not trying to provoke any recriminatory discussion here, but I think there are matters that need some discussion to help prevent this kind of thing happening again. I've flown that area literally hundreds of times and mainly in helicopters, and even in them there are very few places to put down in emergency, the constant whine of the turbine is a very reassuring sound... Someone commented earlier about the frequent low ceiling in the area, and that is a real worry because on a few occasions I've found myself flying much lower through there than I would prefer, just because of the cloudbase and the perceived need to get somewhere, and of course in ultralights you're forced west of the highway by CTA over the more forested country. I'm assuming that the verified 800'AGL referred to above was when the Gazelle dropped off radar and so we can probably assume that the engine trouble began prior to that, and at a greater height. Is there any indication from the radar flightpath and alt of where and when the engine trouble began? I went to the Beerburrum-Woodford Rd on Google Earth, dropped my elevation down to 800ft/260m, then tilt the view and except at the western end of the road there's nowhere except the road itself to put down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Valid points head, but based on a few assumptions. We dont know enough yet IMHO to say there even was engine trouble. When ever a non aviation witness see's an aircraft at low level, its always spluttering, and the aircraft always looks to be 'in trouble'. Also the 800 ft height when dropped off radar doesnt mean anything either, other than that being lowest the height, in that location where radar was able to see the acft. Was there low cloud that day? Its a valid question, and certainly one that deserves discussion from a 'learny' point of view, and like a million other things, will need to be ruled out or in as a factor before we apply it to this particular accident. By all accounts the pilot was quite experienced, which would lead me to the thinking that a call would "probably" have been given if she suffered engine difficulties over tiger country. But no such call was received. Another thing that will need to be addressed is the history of structural problems with the Gazelle (skyfox). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ave8rr Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 I'm assuming that the verified 800'AGL referred to above was when the Gazelle dropped off radar and so we can probably assume that the engine trouble began prior to that, and at a greater height. Is there any indication from the radar flightpath and alt of where and when the engine trouble began? Alan, I think we have to establish IF there was in fact an engine or structural problem. We know the day was fine and clear however the news media made some statements about the pilot that have me possibly thinking differently. We await the results of an official enquiry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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