fly_tornado Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 cowshit in the sump will bring you unstuck everytime 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggles5128 Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 I'm going with clogged fuel filter due to dirty Mogas , on both prangs this week Just received information about the 230 crash, it was a result of fuel starvation. Belongs to a mate of mine. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffreywh Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 bugger there goes my credability again............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf jessup Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 I'm going with clogged fuel filter due to dirty Mogas , on both prangs this week I'm going with the engine stopping because it didn't want to work anymore. Great outcome another surviver Alf 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick-p Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 The oil could just be a hose not tightened. the dipstick perhaps. loose, but when it's jabiru involved it must be the engine's fault. I thought he might have the cowl off because the engine was missing. Nev Hey Nev maybe they removed it before anyone arrived on the scene so that they could disguise the motor because it really was a 912 and they never give up 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Good job on getting it down safely. Pretty sad state of affairs when its that common we all just make light of it. Keep riding that probability wave Jab, eventually its not going to be such a 'humorous' outcome. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XP503 Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 If you fly with an aircraft with a Jabiru engine, it is not a matter of 'if' it 'may fail' - it is a certainty that the piece of crap 'WILL' fail - Just such a shame that those who suffer the inevitible/unavoidable ''Jabiru Engine Failure'' curse (N.B applies to all jab engines) all seem unable to be within a safe gliding distance to somewhere decent to land. Are they ten foot tall and bullet proof? Oh well. Darwins theory being proven before our very eyes.......... No wonder RAAus is in such a bad shape.......... Whole bunch of jabiru drivers out there with no expertise and a hand grenade for an engine.... happy flying 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Normoyle Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 David, them there's fighting words ( I'm not saying I disagree ), did you have a rough day today ! I recall a well delivered spit I let go a few weeks back, stand by for the lovers to try and rip you a new one and the haters to jump on your band wagon. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabiru7252 Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Ra Ra Ra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XP503 Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Yea probably a bit harsh in hindsight but seriously how many jabirus are going to have to crash due to engine troubles before everyone gets their head out of the sand? And why do they very seldom land in a suitable paddock or the like? I love the jab airframe they are bloody strong but that's no excuse to not have a way out when (not if) the fan stops. Such a shame as they are almost a great Aussie ac....jab lovers - don't bother, I've heard it allllll before, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 David, them there's fighting words ( I'm not saying I disagree ), did you have a rough day today ! I recall a well delivered spit I let go a few weeks back, stand by for the lovers to try and rip you a new one and the haters to jump on your band wagon. Patrick, you should know better than to minimise people like that. There certainly are a few people living in denial, but there are others with sound technical knowledge who have made reasoned posts on this forum and they don't deserve to be branded. From your professional position, I would have thought that Motz's point on #31 would have sounded a clearer warning; the factual number of forced landings are huge, and the statistics are pointing to an inevitable bad experience. I've seen two lots of comments about how strong the fuselage is recently, but both lots of photos show an unmarked fuselage indicating the strength wasn't tested. Weight for weight FRP is stronger than aluminium, but it doesn't have any magical properties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coljones Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 I once asked about incidents per flying hour by engine brand/type by aircraft brand/type. I am still waiting for a definitive answer. Jabirus, in all sorts of configurations, make up a large flock of aircraft and engines. They are included in a large number of flying schools in large numbers. They get bashed around all week and their survival is a testament to their appeal. Maybe all the Rotax powered birds spend all week at rest and only come out to play on weekends and, thus, achieve only a fraction of the hours of the Jabiru flock. Just a thought. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 And that's all the thought is worth. There are hard figures available in the monthly magazine, have been for years; I've posted some of there on this forum. They show a very significant trend in numbers. The total numbers tell enough of the story for people to take action. Your request to extend this to incidents per flying hour may or may not change the type of action, but I suspect there's a cost reason there because it would almost certainly require a full time investigator tracking down the true stories in each case. However, since the ATSB has identified the bleeding obvious, and now has an investigation underway into the reliability of Light Sport engines, we may get some better information soon. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebutler Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 David, Your comments although a bit harsh are, in my opinion, all very true. We have had a number of these aircraft go down with engine problems and from where I am sitting not much has been done. We have been very fortunate that in the last few there have only been minor injuries which indicates that the airframe is very well designed and built but the engine is letting the side down. I see from a previous post the earlier crash this week ran out of fuel so we can cross that 1 off the list but there are still quite few others. Do we have to wait for CASA and the ill informed media to jump in, just further adding to woes of RA Aus. I refer to the Robinson helicopters see: http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/sixty-minutes-report-on-robinson-helicopter-crashes.64279/ Come on guys, although not my type of aircraft, I do believe it is a great product. Comments like some in previous posts here would not be made unless there was some problem somewhere. Get it sorted before some one gets badly hurt or worse. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVOCET Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 How is fuel related problems related in any form to the make of the engine ? I'd like to see an investigation into fuel quality and variation (Mogas) .a lot of people are using it blindly , me included , up until now ,those little filters are easily clogged I pulled one out of a jab that ran only on avgas but only did about 15/20 hours per year and it was very hard to blow though ! I expect it would have caused an engine failure in the very near future . I would highly suggest every one check their fuel filters on a frequent basis ,especially if they have been using Mogas . Seems to me we can argue and defend , dispute , different makes of engine but maybe overlook the most ( statistically ) reason that engines fail and flight is prematurely cut short . Cheers mike 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oracle1 Posted August 20, 2013 Author Share Posted August 20, 2013 It seems that finally we will be able to study a real statistical analysis of the reliability of light sport engines, something that should have been done by RAA right from the get go, it may be some time however before the report is released. Be prepared for increased regulation, whether it creates better safety outcomes remains to be seen http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2013/ar-2013-107.aspx 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 I think I got close on my post #2. Having an engine failure and making conclusions from it is pointless unless you know what the cause is in each case. Hand grenade engines etc isn't very helpful (Putting it mildly) As far as using mogas from a servo, there is no guarantee of quality. I have had on several occasions had fuel that made my car run so crook that if it had been in an aircraft it would have not had enough power to stay in the air and a crook running aero engine will probably fail fairly quickly. The fuel when it leaves the terminal or refinery is probably OK but there is no control of it in the servo. Anything can go in there. It FAILS all control methods of delivering fuel to aircraft tanks , and is really NOT suitable from a quality assurance aspect. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 I get the feeling that a lot of ppl don't want to see this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XP503 Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Ignorance is bliss. I reiterate my point, a fantastic aircraft, an Aussie success story, fun to fly. All ruined because the engines are ticking time bombs, what a damn shame..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Yes david, I understand your frustrations, but I think that bagging the owners of jabs is not the best way to deal with the problem. All we can do is educate as best we can, report the problems when they come up, and hope that eventually Jab improve the engines. They are trying, they do have systems in place. For me its a bit too little too late, but things are being done. I reckon there are 2 main problems. 1. The regulator have a job to do, and fleets of aircraft have been grounded due to paperwork anomalies, and yet the shear weight of numbers doesnt seem to be enough for them to take more positive action with this engine. 2. There is a clear LACK of reporting. Thats the only reason point 1 is a possibility. There are stacks and stacks of defects, incidence etc NOT being reported, so the RAA and CASA only have a limited number of 'data' to use. The routine seems to be, find a fault, call jab and abuse them, Jab send a replacement part or arrange to get it fixed. The reporting stage is bypassed. The routine needs to be.Find the fault, report it, and include Jab in the report so they know whats happening. At the end of the day, CASA and the RAA could easily just say (and they do) " well we only have x amount of defects and engine failures on record". So the problem is aloud to continue. Putting s!%t on the owners is not going to do anything but add fuel to the "jab bashing " mentality. There is a downside to reporting everything, which I have personally experienced. And thats the inevitable 'questioning' you get from RAA. " Why are there so many defect reports and incident reports coming from your school andy?" As far as im concerned, let them ask, let them come and see. Dont let it stop you making the reports. Once they have finished looking up your ass with a rubber glove and a flashlight, eventually they will look at the problem!!!!Thats the hope anyway.. I just HOPE like hell it doesnt take a fatality for the powers to have a good look at the issues. 1 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 It seems that finally we will be able to study a real statistical analysis of the reliability of light sport engines, something that should have been done by RAA right from the get go, it may be some time however before the report is released. Be prepared for increased regulation, whether it creates better safety outcomes remains to be seenhttp://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2013/ar-2013-107.aspx Well stuff me mushrooms!! I suspect that is going to create some issues!! Bet the Bundy folk are thrilled to bits on that.....if the claims that often come from there (or so Im told) about it generally being Owner induced...are true then I guess that will come out in the wash......If on the other hand its PL lawyer spiel related....then sucks to be that lawyer shortly (or longly!!) I will watch this space with interest! Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 CASA and RAA won't be able to walk away from this one Motz, there is too much evidence out in the open. DIT have a recall system in place for much less hazardous issues in motor vehicles, so CASA personnel will be held accountable should a fatality occur. RAA publish the forced landing figures, so they shouldn't be picking on you Motz, their urgent priority, some years ago was to address this. Not having a Safety Management System underlines how this sort of thing doesn't get addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Motz Your point is valid. Recently my 3300A failed leakdowns and I took it to a specialist for repair/overhaul. The issues were 2 fold, bore corrosion (Owner induced lack of enough use problem) and valve guides all shot in all cylinders at only circa 200hrs of use..... The engine is a 2005 model solid lifter. Anyway, I've just sent a defect report into Wayne because as you say, if I hadn't then given my issue was diagnosed on the ground as part of a normal maintenance regime and didn't involve any "puckering" other than wallet induced, then as you say neither RAA nor CASA would ever become aware of my specific issue.... Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperplace Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 does anyone yet know why this latest forced landing happened? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 No. And as is always the case, we are not likely to find out either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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