Bob Llewellyn Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Some folk like plenty of stability and enough wing to keep things fairly slow, a la Aeronca C3, Chief, Piper Cub, Lightwing, Drifter, Thruster... and some like small and efficient, e.g. Cri Cri, Corby Starlet, Moni, Sonex, Lightning Bug, BD-5J. It's actually cheaper, from powerplant and materials aspects, to make something small and efficient - Starlite anyone? - and such aeroplanes are easier to store, and generally cheaper to maintain than, er, any other style of flying machine (ignoring hang gliders!). Some people build kits for the building experience - Falco? - and some to save money - Savannah?; do more people want a quick, easy, and cheap kit, even if it flies fast, or do most want something slow & friendly, even if it takes longer and costs more? Most sub-600kg aeroplanes were designed as trainers, against standards and practical requirements for trainers; and that's what they do well. But unscrewing $60k plus for a personal aircraft that is designed, not for a private owner's needs, but as a trainer, does not seem like "affordable flying" to me. So - for the cheapest way to get airborne & visit flyins - is one seat enough? How much luggage? How much range? Folding wings and easy trailerage? How much "hot and high" takeoff ability? How fast? How small? how slow? how big? How 2-stroke? Bewildered Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 The first decision is one or two seats. then high or low wing , and whether you want the wheel at the back, and fast(er) or slow, the how constructed. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgmwa Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 The first decision is one or two seats. then high or low wing , and whether you want the wheel at the back, and fast(er) or slow, the how constructed. Nev ... followed by review of available funds and/or borrowing potential, then return to step one. It's an iterative process. rgmwa 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 ...for the cheapest way to get airborne & visit flyins - is one seat enough? How much luggage? How much range? Folding wings and easy trailerage? How much "hot and high" takeoff ability? How fast? How small? how slow? how big? How 2-stroke?Bewildered Bob. Yep, it is bewildering, Bob. I want all those things, and finally came to the realisation that I've spent decades building my aeroplane so I can visit far-flung people and places, but there is nowhere secure to put it when I get there. I have been working on a couple of concepts that combine STOL with speed and foldability. There must be mobs of us dreamers around the world. I am reluctantly coming to see that you can't beat the simplicity, compactness and STOL of a gyro. I know their safety record has been improved, but I'm too chicken to get in one. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Llewellyn Posted January 22, 2014 Author Share Posted January 22, 2014 I wouldn't get into a gyro for less money than I could retire on, unless designed by me ... or a recently manufactured Cierva, which ain't likely. Anyway, the BD-5J Bond used is pretty compact when folded... Thanks Nev & rgmwa, that sounds depressingly realistic - or realistically depressing? But surely you have a wish list...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickduncs84 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 My perfect plane is a pipistrel virus sw. 140 kt cruise, slow stall speed, 17:1 glide ratio, spoilers to get down fast if needed, 17 lph fuel flow, great climb performance and can be put in a trailer in 15 minutes. Now I just need to dig up 150k! 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Evans Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 i got my lightwing 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Nooyen Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Go the Savannah. STOL, 23 Kt Stall 80Kt cruise, Rotax powered, easy to build, and can get them in almost anywhere. Around the $50K new. Don't just look at speed. Go by the $$$ per hour flying time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgmwa Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Thanks Nev & rgmwa, that sounds depressingly realistic - or realistically depressing? But surely you have a wish list...? Went through the process and for me, the RV-12 ticked all the boxes except cheap. But what the heck, I ordered one anyway. rgmwa 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Gyro's handle turbulence well but use a lot of fuel if you want to go somewhere. Some have design faults that rule them out. Note this post sat for a week so is a bit out of date.Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gareth lacey Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 low wing good cruise(120 to 130 knots) speed, roomy, good vision really good engine type up front, oh hang on we have just built 1 LOL cheers gareth 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Llewellyn Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 Gyro's handle turbulence well but use a lot of fuel if you want to go somewhere. Some have design faults that rule them out. Note this post sat for a week so is a bit out of date.Nev My main gripe is that fatigue is an unread, burned, and buried book to all the blade designs that I know of. Many have an arbitrary "service life", but on inspection are full of lousy structural design - e.g. "fail deadly" philosophy, unnecessary stress raisers, poor choice or juxtaposition of materials; and the class operational limitations do nothing to promote ongoing airworthiness - rather, they seem designed to promote darwinian selection. The other point on modern gyrocopters, is that almost all are based on Benson's entry into the US search for an airforce pilot retrieval flying vehicle (that would fit in a Phantom glovebox, and allow downed pilots to fly out to the Tonkin Gulf). It was meant for a service life of 30 minutes; to be flown by a highly trained pilot; and to not land. True to this heritage, and quite unlike Cierva's later creations, gyros cannot land or takeoff vertically; have very limited speed ranges; and offer naff all pilot protection in event of a prang. I'd be willing to give a Pitcairn a long, hard look... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Some of the latest designs appear to be a lot better than the early ones where blade fatigue seemed to kill them. I am a bit concerned about the thrust line position on some.( Pitch control). Something resembling a Piper Cub is OK by me. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulh Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I don't (yet) own an aircraft and have gone around this thought process about what type of aircraft several times - Happy to build, despite the views of some that every one is now too time poor to build Would need to be trailerable and/or easily storable in say a shipping container or small shed Engine preference is four stroke for fuel consumption and noise reasons Despite the popularity of the LSA types, which are very nice flying machines, I wonder if there is a sustainable market for the true 'ultralight' ie the fun recreational vehicle equivalent to the 4wd/jet ski/Harley/quad bike etc. Not sure reinventing the past with uncool looking craft will attract new flyers. These new flyers I think must be the target to generate sales. Trikes despite their shortcomings seem to be doing very nicely in their niche and definitely have the cool/adventure edge. Looked at small light and efficient - even down to the sd-1 mini plane, but looking at how short coupled they are must be very pitch sensitive and safety comes to mind. Would get very uncomfortable in rough air. Sonex seem good value for money with good heritage and factory support, for some reason not popular in Oz. Heard that not really a good fit for grass runways, and those little wings struggle to make lift on a hot day esp with the 80hp aerovee Low wings look nice, easy to refuel, good view in turns etc., but when I shut that bubble canopy on a hot day (which is a lot in QLD) they can be hot and need sunscreen like at the beach. Strut braced high wings are a lot easier to make strong with a safer pilot space - The plethora of versions of the avid flyer type says something about what a lot of people are looking for. I'm thinking a modern version of the piper cub type with doors optional would be fun, sort of a three axis trike for 1 + 1 persons. Construction materials - what ever works best for the particular application. Not keen on too much wood - no good in heat and humidity in QLD and it can't be stored outside or without good ventilation in a small shed/trailer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDQDI Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I think it's the same as cars you can't really get a one size fits all you need 2 or 3 of them:thumb up: but sadly there is one major hurdle for most of us with that (money). When looking at planes to start with I would have liked a 4 seater but obviously it's not recreational if you want to take your kiddies and the costs jump up not just maintenance but running costs so I worked out that to take the misses and kids I would be better off hiring and decide to get a 2 seater (single seater just wouldn't be the same as sharing something doubles the value) then it was a matter of what sort of 2 seater. This also took a lot of deliberation as I wanted everything, fast cruise, slow stall, paddock landable, decent range. But it was obvious you can't get it all so I had to weigh up what I wanted the most. I already had a soft spot for high wing tail draggers as I did my training in a j3 and I really wanted something that would handle rough paddocks as that is where I wanted to go, so I sacrificed a high cruise speed so I could have a slowish stall. I ended up going with the hornet as I had heard some good things about them and their factory is relatively close (it's a nice feeling to know if you have hassles you only have a short drive to get right to the source.) I know there are cheaper alternatives but when I had my first visit to their hangar the customer service won me over and I was sold. Would I like a second plane that goes quick but needs a Tarmac or smooth strip? You bet I would but I can't afford that. Am I unhappy with my choice? Not at all couldn't be happier So I guess in summary of my rambling its like commodores and landcruisers they do different jobs and if you accept that and don't expect the commodore to go off road or the landcruiser to do 300 and pick the one that suits the most you will be happy. Also note that there are a lot more than two types but I just chose those as an example:blah blah: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 ... I ended up going with the hornet ...Would I like a second plane that goes quick ... Easy. Just fold those damned big ugly wheels out of the way! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guernsey Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Easy. Just fold those damned big ugly wheels out of the way! You could probably have two sets of wheels, one set being more aerodynamically efficient, but you would have to be able to change them as quick as they do in the pits at the grand prix. . Alan. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soleair Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Minimax does it for me. Low & slow, fun to build, trailerable, very affordable. I don't have any great desire to hurtle round the stratosphere in a hot plastic bubble glued to a panel. What I want is to putter round the sky in the calm air of dawn or dusk in an open cockpit and live the experience. Bit like the difference between a hot hatchback saloon car and a motorbike. Just a shame the Minimax isn't a 2 seater, but at least I won't be dragging an empty seat around half the time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viruspilot Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 My perfect plane is a pipistrel virus sw.140 kt cruise, slow stall speed, 17:1 glide ratio, spoilers to get down fast if needed, 17 lph fuel flow, great climb performance and can be put in a trailer in 15 minutes. Now I just need to dig up 150k! Nick, I have the exact aircraft you are talking about. I currently cruise at 140 kts at about 14.3 liters per hour. You need the airbrakes as it wants to go fast, even at pattern flying. I don't know about trailering in 15 minutes, but certainly in less than 45 if that is what you want to do. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickduncs84 Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Hi viruspilot. Good to hear they perform as advertised. Certainly seem unmatched in the Lab field as far as speed and economy are concerned. Was looking to put an order in later in the year, but with the AUD continuing to slide against the Euro, it's looking less and less likely! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Llewellyn Posted February 3, 2014 Author Share Posted February 3, 2014 They seem to have a remarkably high rough air penetration speed, considering the load factors and wing details. Has anyone cruised through a blue-air thermal or similar? How confortable was it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montymagic Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Hi Bob, ive been following your post quite a bit and find your knowledge is quite expansive, are you an aeronautical engineer by any chance? Cheers Monty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I would like to build something like a 2 seat TEAM Airbike, with folding aluminium wings, and use the Suzuki G13 motor with the SPG redrive. Would need a decent undercarriage for unimproved strips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viruspilot Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I hear that. When I ordered mine, I should have gone ahead and prepaid the whole thing. If I had, the USD slide against the Euro would not have cost me an extra 7000 Euro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I hear that. When I ordered mine, I should have gone ahead and prepaid the whole thing. If I had, the USD slide against the Euro would not have cost me an extra 7000 Euro Hi Shane, What is the stall speed of the virus. Also, is the virus suitable for off-field landings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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