Kyle Communications Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 ATSB interviewed me this morning so I can't say too much about it all but Turbo that is being looked at after a report from someone else from a week ago with that aircraft. I thought I was a W&B issue or a broken control cable but the seat theory also fits to what I saw happen with the aircraft 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit12 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 Very sad to hear, condolences to the families. I'm not a big believer in professional help but don't feel shy to express yourselves to family, friends or here if you're feeling like crap, it will help. Most of us blokes aren't big on professional help, and anyone who has been through critical incident debriefing would probably question just how much worth there is in it. For now family and friends are probably the best support, and anything that is causing problems into the future probably warrants professional intervention. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 In accordance with car blah blah parachutists are required to wear single point restraints on takeoff amd landing and below 500ft. Penalty 30 day grounding and case of beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head in the clouds Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 i read that atsb report called the not so merry go around. you can still fly the plane even when the seat goes back especialy a 600 hours pilot. That is too general a statement. I've got a lot more than 600hrs and in my case whatever number of hours I had wouldn't have let me 'fly the plane' in the conventional sense, I know that for sure because I tested it out in my C172 while on the ground. The reason is - I'm not tall enough to reach the pedals with the seat right back, nor can I push the control column forward beyond half way if the nose is up and the seat is back - as Turbo said, you're badly off-balance in that situation. And - the first reaction is to lift the seat adjusting lever under the front of the seat and pull yourself forward using the only thing in reach which is the control column of course ... instant nose vertical. The only solution for me, or anyone who isn't tall, would be to twist sideways under the (single sided) shoulder harness and reach forward and down to wind the elevator trim forward until the nose levelled, assuming the model you're flying has a manual trim-wheel. Shuffling back and forth in the seat solidly to check the pin engagements as a pre-takeoff check is the best insurance. There have been more than one crash as a result of those Cessna seat locks, it'll be even more tragic if this is another one. So sad for all involved. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 i read that atsb report called the not so merry go around. you can still fly the plane even when the seat goes back especialy a 600 hours pilot. There are dozens of them over the last fifty years, and in some case the slide stops had been removed and the pilot finished up against the rear seat, in others the seat adjustment was excessive, so it all depends on what was in the aircraft and how it was working. You can't test it sitting in the aircraft because the gravity force is downward and you can reach, but on your back with the aircraft putting out full power produces different force vectors which you can't overcome. For example I put a tractor up on its tail a few years ago. There was no backrest so my shoulders just dropped straight down away from the steering wheel; I grabbed on to that OK but I had no gravity to help me push the clutch in as I pushed by body just sequeezed further down and I had to sit there with the rear wheels spinning in the air and eventually just managed to pull myself up and pull on the cutout lever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 In the light of his own crash, Maj might be able to tell us if parachutist are normally secured to the aircraft these days. A shifting load is a nightmare scenario. In my particular crash in a jump plane we were actually ferrying one place to another. Single point restraints (which are ment to attach to the parachute harnesses of each individual) wern't bought in then. The seat belts were still in the aircraft attached to the floor (lap belts only) myself and the female passenger used them, and it saved our lives. She was not a jumper just a passenger. Had she been a jumper we would probabily not have used them, as we were not about to fall out of the open door, I can tell you !. Even if those at Ycab were using the single point attaches now in use, I doubt if they would have survived the vertical Impact from that height. I don't think the fire got them , it was all over by then, as evidenced by the almost complete distruction of the aircraft. In my days we always made a point of getting up foward behind the pilot to keep the weight ( and CG) forward, for all takeoffs. Some pilots were more pedantic in seeing that this occurred than others. We also did that in Beech 18 s and DC 3s. All up front for takeoff. This pilot obviously experienced some kind of pitch up that he couldn't control quick enough. A rear CG would be the obvious answer, but could also be some kind of elev trim failure. We may never know unless the eyewitness reports are very accurate as to what happened. Seat lock failure is a possibility. Many thought our crash was caused by seat lock failure but it wasn't, it was a sudden and complete engine failure followed by a low altitude attempt at the 'impossible turn'. I am also familiar with the accident aircraft VH-FRT. It was purchased originally from Tassy, and was operated for some years by Liddles at Ingham. It also spent some time on Hamilton Island on lease. I did quite a bit of corrosion control work on it (external), and one flight up to Lockhard River with a new engine in the back, to put in another 206 that had blown a cylinder. We then ferried over to Coen after two days work fitting the new engine. I got a bit of time in it on the way back to Ingham via the Cairns VFR route. Sad to see it come to grief like this, not to mention the tragic loss of so many good people. RIP adventurers......Maj..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 The seat moving back could not be ruled out. I NEVER get in a Cessna without getting the pins to engage by the usual wiggle your butt method. I defy anyone to regain control with the seat right back. You can reach nothing but the control wheel if you haven't let it go. Nev. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalman Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 those damn seat tracks, it was my first thought when I heard the eyewitness accounts,,,haven't had it happen to me but I do wiggle about everytime I get in a Cessna , Too sad Matty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 Most Cessnas I've seen lately have either a bolt thru the track or a fabricated fitting to prevent the seat moving back. Sure there isn't an AD for this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 Failure of the seat locks has happened before and as the nose comes up the seat goes all the way back and you can't overcome your own body weight because your legs are no longer below you. Yup, happened to me in my Piper Archer when I had it, climbing out of Archerfield . Luckily for me I was a dual Navigation exercise with a Instructor. I instinctively let go of the yoke as the seat side back. The instructor naturally took over, until we attained level flight and I could pull myself forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
av8vfr Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 Re the seat sliding: I was told by an instructor many (many) years ago that if this happened, (as it may in Cessnas) to throw the controls forward, even put your feet on the controls, until you were able to slide the seat forward by natural means.. Not a natural cause of action to release the controls, but always in the back of your mind in a Cessna. However, if you are aware of the issue. you always check the seat is secure in your pre-checks so hopefully this will never be an issue. I think the problem may be the lack of information transferred between generations. Unfortunately most new pilots are unaware of the lessons learnt prior to their licence... especially when operating old airframes/engines unless they have had similar experienced instructors.. I am not saying the seat was an issue in this event, but all aviators should be aware of the implications, and the response I was taught may or may not suit the situation. I am just putting it out there... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan3111 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 Hi there I was there at the same time as most of the guys and would like to thank ballpoint for all his effort he put into putting the fire out and trying his best to help the people on board you are a true leader and you did your best , in fact the best any one could have . It was the saddest day at Caboolture strip for years since my best friend died there and hope never to see a day like that again . After thinking about it for a day or so I do think all airstrips that have larger ga planes should have some better fire fighting equipment on hand for fuel fires . Instead if that crash was a simple belly flop non much impact but fuel leaking from tanks we still would not me able to put out quick enough to help get people out of the plane with how quick a avg gas fire spreads . I does make you stop and think . Fly the safest you can . Dan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 You would be surprised how many new pilots don't know there is a fuel drain on the belly of most 182s. This is a drain at the lowest point of the fuel system where all the water is going to collect...........Maj.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 ...Most of us blokes aren't big on professional help, and anyone who has been through critical incident debriefing would probably question just how much worth there is in it. For now family and friends are probably the best support, and anything that is causing problems into the future probably warrants professional intervention. We have found the value of still time; not rushing back to work after a traumatic rescue job. Often the best therapy has been to sit around with a beer or cuppa with nobody to pester us with questions or demands. Vietnam vets had a short plane ride between war zone and home. Previous diggers at least had a few weeks aboard a troopship to wind down. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Don't anybody imagine you can tough this out. Don't be afraid to seek others who can help you. It may never go away if nothing is done. Nev 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Too true Nev. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Whether it was a factor or not those seat tracks on Cessnas are a bit scary. I mentioned this on another thread but a mate imported a 180HP 172 from the US FED that was seized after being used for drug running in the US. It looked really run down as it had been sitting in the desert sun for a long time but he assured me it went really well. It did. I always move the seat well forward being a bit of a short arxe & did the normal back & forward movements to make sure it was locked. With only me on board & not a lot of fuel she climbed out at well over 1000 fpm & somehow the lock let go. I rocketed back & instantly grabbed the top of the panel which to my astonishment came off & came back with me. Somehow I managed to push the yoke far enough forward & with the relatively light weight of the aircraft & full power, regained control. I managed to pull the seat forward again while sitting on the very front edge of it while simultaneously pushing the panel facade back into place as best I could. It seems a bit amusing to me now when recalling that event but the shock didn't set in for a while as I was running on full adrenaline boost at the time. I continued the flight for about 30 minutes & then abused the crap out of my friend for telling me his heap of junk was good. I didn't say much to anyone else for ages but it was worrying me a lot & then I told a couple of mates, the Club CFI & some other people. Their understanding and empathy were really what kept me flying long term. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Crikey, KG, that sure sounds like grounds for a mandatory modification- or grounding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 From time to time there were recommendations made . The holes wear rounded at the top and the seat twists in the runners. It's probably wear that makes them less than satisfactory. You could fit an additional lock or trim the plane a bit forward. It's one of the most dangerous aspects of that line of aircraft. It has caught a lot of people out. Nev 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 this is a well known Cessna fault and it is told to just about all pilots of Cessnas. I thought that there were AD's issued about the matter years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I am sure an AD came out to replace worn seat rails in the early nineties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I don't think it is unique to Cessnas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 It is quite possible that the seat was the cause or a parachutist losing his attachment and rolling back in the cabin at the takeoff angle. Either way a terribly sad outcome. I used to fly parachute ops in a C206. You are pretty heavy hauling bodies out if you have a load of fuel on and if something was to go wrong, speed decays very quickly. It sounds awfully like something has gone wrong with weight and balance and either a moving passenger or worse moving pilot would do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 You can put another 2 maybe 3 jumpers in a 206. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 You can put another 2 maybe 3 jumpers in a 206. Another two or three more than how many Steve.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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