facthunter Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Same as the stuck open CV slide makes it run rich?? This resulted in a 100% power loss. That was also an FAA investigator. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Not sure that the FAA really care that much about E-AB investigations, they cost money and resources and produce little in the way of results. America is a big country and for a local accident you might get someone who has never seen anything but 172s. Fuel hose layout http://www.titanaircraft.com/manuals/tornado/02-INS-1380-A.pdf http://www.titanaircraft.com/manuals/tornado/02-INS-1379-A.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Well for my money I'd always trust the armchair experts rather than the on site investigators especially when the on site investigators cant tell the difference between an in line fuel filter and a fuel shut off valve. Beats me how they got that wrong..... "The fuel shut-off valve was found in an intermediate position (not on or off) and there was no detent for the handle" Must be dark up there FT 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Bit of a crude heads-up there, Gandalph... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 This guy doesn't even have an in line filter OR a fuel shut off valve and he doesn't crash. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 The FAA is pretty shitty organisation when it comes to GA, ask the AOPA or EAA. Jabirus have a terrible rep in the US, its almost impossible to sell them in a Tornado airframe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Bit of a crude heads-up there, Gandalph... I heard there were black outs all over Qld:wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 The FAA is pretty shitty organisation when it comes to GA, ask the AOPA or EAA. Yeah, what would those FAA guys know about fuel systems? Oh! Wait a minute, they're the guys that got the "failed" engine to run. I'm guessing they turned the inline fuel filter to fully open........... 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Jabirus have a terrible rep in the US, its almost impossible to sell them in a Tornado airframe. Not nearly as bad a reputation as Flying Tornado's have Down Under 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 One database I look at occasionally is the Aviation Safety Network (ASN) which can be found at aviation-safety.net/database/ Select database....select year. Mostly top end stuff but you do get the occasional overseas Jab. Of course there is also the Australian ATSB database. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 You fought a good fight Gandalph, not good enough to save Jabiru though 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Start your own forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 You fought a good fight Gandalph, not good enough to save Jabiru though From what? You? Puleeeeeze! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 And then there's gandalph, who is an officer of the court, or something. That seems to bother you Ornis. What's the relevance to this thread? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldo Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 This would be a valuable thread if non-Jabiru owners weren't included, or others by invite only. Deb Precisely why I haven't until now made any comment, I own a 230, would buy another, my opinion (and I have a couple of hours under my belt both RA and GA) best RA aircraft on the market. A few people who have had bad experiences (for whatever reason) can't stop bagging them and some on the RA board. What amazes me is that you only ever see about 30 members on this site and there are supposedly 10,000 RA members a very small minority complaining. Jabiru may eventually be the winner out of all this, there won't be a pilot in the world who hasn't heard of them after this all settles down, go try search Rotax aircraft (they don't build one) search Jabiru aircraft and see what you find (all the knockers will say lots for sale) if I find a 230 stupidly priced I would have no hesitation in buying it. 1 7 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff13 Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 This would be a valuable thread if non-Jabiru owners weren't included, or others by invite only. I suppose that would be one way to ensure only your opinion could be put forward with no disscussion from differing view points. I am tomorrow looking at a J powered aircraft no not a Jab but in your opinion I should have no input into this thread. You are starting to sound like the Jab factory, head planted firmly in the sand. It is not our motor at fault it is the rest of the world. Not the best way to keep what has obviously been a very good company up there as a market leader. Imho. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ornis Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 What is this? The Jabiru family squabbling! No crapping in the nest, please, we're in this together, aren't we? No. Some have flown the coop... Here's the thing. Had Rod Stiff cocked his head and "listened", Jabiru would never have got off the ground. His arrogance and doggedness, a compliant CASA overly-optimistic pilots and forgiving owners allowed him to beat the odds. But what were once strengths now work against him. Despite the years of development, at considerable cost largely borne by customers, the Jabiru engine is unsatisfactory - by any reasonable standard. If you want a true measure, conduct a survey and ascertain how many current or previous Jabiru owners would buy another Jabiru engine. It's bad enough Jabiru engines require constant attention and major work, sometimes after just a few hours, but they experience catastrophic failures in spite of this - at an alarming rate. Furthermore, fixes are ad hoc. The answer to flywheel bolts breaking was not dowels. The answer to continual tappet adjustment was not hydraulic lifters. The answer to heads overheating is not admonishing pilots. And the answer to CASA is not "You're wrong." For three reasons, first it's a bureaucracy and bureaucracies are never wrong, secondly, CASA is right. The third reason is commercial. No doubt recreational aircraft/engines are being developed in China. No doubt any direct-drives will be copies of Jabiru/ULPower. If they are better and cheaper Jabiru will crash. Taking CAMit with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 I wouldn't hold my breath with the "better and cheaper " from China. It's possible but has not yet happened with most "copies" of anything and a motor with already a few issues that are being carefully addressed here by CAMit is not likely to be done better in China. Are they likely to include major modifications? Do they have the expertise to do it? Is the market big enough for it to be profitable? Would it be better to develop a completely revised design.? Refer to previous point. IF the whole aircraft is to be built in China what implications for current owners are in that possibility? Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 The SOONER jab and Camit take a breath, realise each can save the other, and continue pumping out a great product, with reliability issues fixed, the sooner everyone's a winner. ( that's everyone ) 8 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 I'm not a betting man , but I reckon that won't happen. Would be good if it did though. Nev 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest john Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 It has been stated on this Topic previously that if Jabiru & Camit were to forget their personal differences & sit around the table as grown men & women, & to come up with a COMMERCIAL JOINT VENTURE that would be beneficial to both of these true Aussie Companies, this would be a win win situation for not only these 2 Companies but furthermore for Jabiru owners & aircraft owners with Jabiru engines around the world. Something as simple as the abovementioned suggested procedure seems to be to difficult for either of these 2 Companies to negotiate through. Put it another way, these 2 Companies can't or don't want to see the trees for the forest, however if these 2 Companies continue on their past & present path, they will do so at their own peril, as sure as night follows day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 this was posted on Jab's facebook page last week Partnerships... Further to my last correspondence and finishing words of Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics:- There is no doubt that statistics can be a useful tool. It has been proven by many that collating numbers from a small data set will not result in meaningful results.....except if you want to use a number to make a point. In reality anything can look good or bad at the press of a button. The question then arises on what intent the people producing the statistics might have. Statistical evidence can easily be used as a tool to make a pre-conceived point or push through an agenda. Statistics produced from independent sources with no political or otherwise agenda are the most useful and are what allow us to be pro-active in our approach. We take all statistics we receive seriously. The statistics we have collected ourselves and compared to CASA which were supplied by the RAA do lead me to another question. The question is, if I buy a Jabiru or in fact any other aircraft, will it be reliable? A simple question, I wish there was a simple answer. There are three major parties that come together in this equation - the manufacturer, the operator and the maintainer. The manufacturer is responsible for many things and it is perceived and or expected that he should be able to design and build a “bullet-proof” product which is somehow tolerant of every foreseeable handling, maintenance or operational variable that could and does occur. I do not know of any “bullet-proof” engine. The manufacturer can do his best but without the partnership of proper operation and proper maintenance the equation starts to come unstuck. As a manufacturer it is our responsibility to provide manuals on how to operate and maintain the product in the correct way for the product to achieve its optimum performance. Our team put a lot of time and hard work in to manuals which are freely available and user friendly. To complete the equation the operation and maintenance must then be carried out in accordance to the manuals provided. When I learnt to fly I was taught first to read all the manuals and manage the engine. First of all I had to do a pull through and with a Lycoming this can be a bit tricky. There was a well regimented pre-flight check. We were taught to look for nicks or cracks in propellers, followed by fuel water checks. Fuel contents checks using a dipstick and physically sighting the fuel in the tank. External check of control rod ends with freedom of movement, tyres for bald patches and on it goes. Start up and then a warm up period, advance the throttle slowly and climb away. In flight we were taught to maintain cylinder head temperature and oil temperature by adjusting our climb rate and our speed. There were no sudden throttle movements and no rapid cooling and always within engine limits. For maintenance the aircraft went to the local LAME. He did it by the book. His first check was for applicable AD’s (Airworthiness Directives) and Service Bulletins. Standard 100 hourly on a C172 was 13 man hours, brakes and wheel bearings were additional. Now the question is was my brand new Cessna 172 reliable? Well generally it was, except at 400 hours from new it seized a valve (does that sound familiar) and put me in a paddock with four people on board. No harm done. The local LAME came and changed the cylinder and a few days later I flew it home. The engine ran well to its TBO of 2200 hours. Now back to statistics. Valve issues and through bolt failures are shown to be the major contributors to the statistics. To strengthen our partnership we are going to ask you to look at valves and through bolts on existing engines. At top overhaul or full overhaul engines will be upgraded to 7/16” bolts. Valve relief pistons will be fitted as standard. This will bring existing engines close to new production engines which are performing very well. Given that each of these incidents could now be reduced significantly with Service Bulletin implementation, statistically we would be more reliable than our major competitor. Isn’t it marvellous what statistics can do!! So are all engines reliable you say. Well, they are probably as reliable as the partnership of the manufacturer, the operator and the maintainer. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianboag Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 So now that the poorly described - largely anecdotal - possibly user-related problems have been fixed - you would buy a new one tomorrow and make the same recommendation to your best mate ..... I would imagine that engine sales are currently in the toilet, so the latest "upgrades" may not have accumulated a lot of hours. But we all know that these problems are fixed now - like the flywheel screws were fixed in 2006 (dowels) .... the long ("12 point") nuts that didn't last long as a through-bolt fix .... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ornis Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 At top overhaul or full overhaul engines will be upgraded to 7/16” bolts. Valve relief pistons will be fitted as standard. This will bring existing engines close to new production engines which are performing very well. I searched the Jabiru site for information on engines, specifically, are hydraulic lifters current or has Jabiru reverted to solid lifters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ornis Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Current Jabiru engines are hydraulic lifters. Roller-followers is another stab-in-the-dark. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tappet Early tappets had rollers to reduce wear from the rotating camshaft, but it was found that the roller pivots wore even faster and also that the small radius of the rollers also tended to accelerate wear on the expensive camshaft. Facilis descensus Averno (the descent to hell is easy). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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