Old Koreelah Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 ...Riveted structurers have a good history over the years for their energy absorption qualities, as do steel frame and some wood structurers... That may be true Maj. I respect your expertise in aviation matters but please, just once, could you give credit where it has been earned. When it comes to structural safety, Jabiru's fibreglass aeroplanes are amoung the best. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coljones Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 I am not an aircraft engineer and do not have the experience to compare or make claims what is thye best aircraft in the world, someone else did. I just asked a valid question.' Thanks Oscar that is valid information. Just to explain were I am coming from. After 2 engine failures during my training that almost put me off flying. I feel it is important that student pilots are well informed what the risk of particular aircraft are so they can make an informed decision which flying school to choose. I understand there are multiple reasons why people choose to fly a particular aircraft. But if an unexperienced pilot asks a valid question I would expect that he is not put back in his box an experienced members would give their unbiased advise leaving their ego aside and trying to be helpful rather than judgemental. Thank you and safe flying If you have had 2 engine failures in your training I would suggest you find another school or maintenance person as your personal rate appears to be much higher than the norm even for jabs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 That may be true Maj. I respect your expertise in aviation matters but please, just once, could you give credit where it has been earned. When it comes to structural safety, Jabiru's fibreglass aeroplanes are amoung the best. I would agree with that in most cases.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 Yea, thats a scientific explanation and comparison. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 I've seen a number of Jabiru crashes (pilot error) that were of a far greater similar impact and the occupants have simply walked away. Where do you hang out? Seeing " a number " of accidents, remind me not to fly into your airfield.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 We've had as many crashes as you've had engine failures! Oh yea? So you have had ONE crash? So your saying you watched a few crashes on TV? Interesting. Youtube has a fair few prangs for your viewing pleasure, wont make you or anyone else an expert though. Just out of curiosity, Exactly how many accidents have you personally witnessed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 None Motz.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 Deborah. ( or Barry or Steve) If you would like me and others to take your comments seriously, and not as some sort of sly dig, perhaps start using real numbers. " as many incident reports I've lodged" ? How many is that exActly? Why would you feel the need to answer a question with a statement like that? What relevance does it have? Yes, I hve submitted several "defect" reports regarding some powe plants. What relevance does that have to you and how many accidents you " claim" to have witnessed? I'm a little lost to be honest. Sometimes your posts seem credible and worthy of a detailed response . Others seem to have been written by a child who has hacked daddy's password on his computer. EzCtly how many people use your account to post here? And try answering with alpha numerical figure generally accepted indicating a number, rather thn a sly dig at me and my operation that has stupidly ( in the past) used the aircraft that is the basis of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 I'm sticking with " none" unless you can come up with something which can be verified. This thread is no place for tongue in cheek comments. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 This thread is no place for tongue in cheek comments. Congratulations Turboprop on outing yourself as a site moderator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 Site troll more like it Merv at one stage you were claiming around 10% of total Jabiru failures werent you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 I would agree with that in most cases.... There have been several fatal Jab accidents in the US and Europe where the fuselage structure didn't save them, and one fatal in this country that didn't either. See post # 2 in thread 'Mildura Fatal accident '. Additionally as a comparison the higher than normal fatal count in the Cirrus type aircraft in the US which has a far more exotic composite fuselage structure that does the Jab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 No Site troll more like itMerv at one stage you were claiming around 10% of total Jabiru failures werent you no jet. I claimed 10% of the through bolts failures. Only one resulted in an actual in flight failure. Anything else I can help you with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 A truce would be a good start. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 I think the truce will be here in a few days:) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nong Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 Maybe name an airframe that is better in terms of crash worthiness? The Grumman G-164 Ag-Cat has always been top dog for crash survival. The light frame models had an amazing record. I know of two cats that have failed to pull out of loops, yet the pilots survived. The one that speared in Australia went in at about a 70 degree angle and the pilot skinned his forehead due to the heavy shoulder straps failing in tension. A certain ag pilot who was poking around in fog, managed to bring down the local broadcasting station tower by means of a direct hit on the engine followed by a wild ride to earth. His helmet came off and went out through the armour glass windscreen! He walked away. In the states, a Grumman A6 Navy Jet took the top wings off an Ag-Cat that was poking along at 200 feet with a full hopper. The Navy pilots punched out and the Ag-Cat fell down with no wings (obviously the lower ones fold once top ones are gone). The pilot lived but was badly hurt by an engine cylinder that was knocked off by the jet. As rotten luck would have it, the cylinder came through the G E Lexan windscreen and clobbered the pilot on the noggin. Grumman used to boast that no one was killed during the first MILLION hours of ag flying. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nong Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 The Grumman G-164 Ag-Cat has always been top dog for crash survival. The light frame models had an amazing record.I know of two cats that have failed to pull out of loops, yet the pilots survived. The one that speared in Australia went in at about a 70 degree angle and the pilot skinned his forehead due to the heavy shoulder straps failing in tension. A certain ag pilot who was poking around in fog, managed to bring down the local broadcasting station tower by means of a direct hit on the engine followed by a wild ride to earth. His helmet came off and cracked the armour glass windscreen! He walked away. In the states, a Grumman A6 Navy Jet took the top wings off an Ag-Cat that was poking along at 200 feet with a full hopper. The Navy pilots punched out and the Ag-Cat fell down with no wings (obviously the lower ones fold once top ones are gone). The pilot lived but was badly hurt by an engine cylinder that was knocked off by the jet. As rotten luck would have it, the cylinder came through the G E Lexan windscreen and clobbered the pilot on the noggin. Grumman used to boast that no one was killed during the first MILLION hours of ag flying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 The Grumman G-164 Ag-Cat has always been top dog for crash survival. The light frame models had an amazing record.I know of two cats that have failed to pull out of loops, yet the pilots survived. The one that speared in Australia went in at about a 70 degree angle and the pilot skinned his forehead due to the heavy shoulder straps failing in tension. A certain ag pilot who was poking around in fog, managed to bring down the local broadcasting station tower by means of a direct hit on the engine followed by a wild ride to earth. His helmet came off and went out through the armour glass windscreen! He walked away. In the states, a Grumman A6 Navy Jet took the top wings off an Ag-Cat that was poking along at 200 feet with a full hopper. The Navy pilots punched out and the Ag-Cat fell down with no wings (obviously the lower ones fold once top ones are gone). The pilot lived but was badly hurt by an engine cylinder that was knocked off by the jet. As rotten luck would have it, the cylinder came through the G E Lexan windscreen and clobbered the pilot on the noggin. Grumman used to boast that no one was killed during the first MILLION hours of ag flying. Awesome, I vote that we get a stall speed and weight increase to allow the Grumman Ag cat to be RAA registered. 2 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ornis Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 The Grumman G-164 Ag-Cat has always been top dog for crash survival. Yes, yes, but would it be safe with a Jabiru engine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 Deb / Steve / Barry / turboplanner / Motzart / Merv... What's the difference? Big difference Brent. History is a good teacher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2tonne Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 There have been several fatal Jab accidents in the US and Europe where the fuselage structure didn't save them, and one fatal in this country that didn't either. See post # 2 in thread 'Mildura Fatal accident '.Additionally as a comparison the higher than normal fatal count in the Cirrus type aircraft in the US which has a far more exotic composite fuselage structure that does the Jab. Maj, I could find only one fatal in a Jab listed on NTSB. That was a loss of control with near vertical impact into a hangar. For UK/Europe there was an accident in Suffolk which was loss of control following flight into IMC. There was also one in France - a news report that came out after the investigation suggested that the pilot performed a tight descending turn to exit restricted air space and overstressed the airframe (http://www.warwickcourier.co.uk/news/regional/microlight-pair-deaths-accidental-1-6429957). Are there others in the US and Europe in addition to these? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 I posted a list in this thread somewhere.. Wasnt comprehensive, but had 4 or 5, that I found quite easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank marriott Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 I think the truce will be here in a few days:) So you know something the rest of us don't???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 I spoke to ops yesterday, the RAA are replying to CASA's latest draft and we are expecting something mid week. Ops were confident CASA has relaxed their grip "slightly". I think we are in good hands, staff and the board are handling the issue well I think. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 fatal involving a Jabiru 2200 powered Tornado due to loss of power Serial D96618COHK0196 indicates its a 2 seater built 1996 for a 618 rotax http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=172272 http://www.fauquier.com/news/article/plane_crash_in_southern_fauquier_kills_one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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