Head in the clouds Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 I prefer to have a hard copy for reading and reference, particularly where important documents are concerned. Consequently I tried to print, punch and bind the new Ops Manual but it had been posted on the RAAus site in a 2 page format which made it impossible to print double-sided and end up with an A5 double-sided document to fit the clip binder. I'd noticed that the RAA site said hard copies will be distributed to FTFs so I contacted the RAA Office and asked the price for one to be sent to me and received the following - "We are still waiting on the printers for the new Operations Manual, the cost of it will be $60.00. Unfortunately I don’t have a timeframe for its arrival. The copy on the website has been changed to a more print friendly single page copy that you may want to look at." So that's great, I can now print it again and format the pages how I want them to make an A5 'book' that fits the binder. However, I guess that not everyone has a home office and some of the local printers tend to be a bit hungry with their print pricing. Our local one is particularly so, so I got a quote from them to print me a one-off copy on double sided A5, (or A4 and guillotine it) and punch it for a standard binder. The manual contains 40 double sides of A4 and they quoted $20 which was, I suppose, the normal 20c per side plus $4 for the cutting and punching. My question to you fellow aviators is this - the Ops Manual is a critical document that everyone should be familiar with and, in my opinion, should have a personal hard copy for regular reference. So should RAAus really be blatantly making a very large profit out of the distribution of our operational documents? I'd imagine that a printing company producing dozens or hundreds of copies of the Manual ought to be able to sell them to RAAus for about half the one-off price, so if RAAus paid $10 and, say, $10 for mailing, shouldn't the members be able to buy one for $20 delivered? I'm certainly in favour of cost-recovery but in my opinion I don't think RAAus should be charging any more than the actual printing and mailing cost, especially as doing so is bound to discourage some of our members from having a printed copy. Frankly, $60 seems a bit rich to me. What do others think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Your $20 sounds a bit cheap. It's not large volume production. Maybe the 60 represents the "real" cost with doing everything associated with it's production. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhysmcc Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 It's fair to me, we are trying to cut our expenses as an organisation, that means moving to digital form to reduce supplies and administration. Factor in the postal, administration and printing the documents and I'd be surprised if $60 even covers all that. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 It is core business, that is what we have RAA for!!! It is becoming like paying your rates to the council while the road network falls apart around our ears. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 $60 is nothing if you can afford $180K for a new plane 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Automotive operating Manuals can run from $220.00 to $450.00 if they have to be bound. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 THEY (Auto service manuals) are extremely expensive and LARGE. I think many businesses use on line manuals because of the sheer volume of print required. A hard copy might be more appropriate for most of us. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 I just had an illustrated 150 page paperback book printed A5 at about $7 each for 300 by Griffin Press in South Australia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 THEY (Auto service manuals) are extremely expensive and LARGE. I think many businesses use on line manuals because of the sheer volume of print required.A hard copy might be more appropriate for most of us. Nev Yes, maybe they are larger, and I realised after I posted that they are costed on low runs - maybe 400 for Holden, 50 for smaller makes. PM's figure shows it's economically possible, although you have to add packaging and distribution to that. Aside from lowering cost, online manuals allow immediate correction of errors, where there are books out there incorrect for years. Digital allows a lot more photos and a lot less confusing descriptions, and videos showing the more tricky installations. Online Parts Manuals are particularly good. What I'm seeing more and more is a greasy IPad sitting on the mudguard while the guy is working. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 They need the LATEST data. I think a lot of it is not necessarily straight from the manufacturer, but from specialist compilers sp? If you were setting up a crown wheel and pinion , a manual would be better..Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head in the clouds Posted December 3, 2014 Author Share Posted December 3, 2014 Automotive operating Manuals can run from $220.00 to $450.00 if they have to be bound. Yes, whatever, but the Ops Manual doesn't have to be bound, or even provide an A5 clip binder which costs 60c for a Burroughs brand at Officeworks. Presumably most people will still have their clip binder from the Version 6 Ops Manual? So all that's needed is the punching. Since we're obviously so 'conditioned' by Govt departments to paying exorbitant prices for basic paperwork let's put a couple of things in perspective here - If anyone really thinks the cost of this 40 double sided A4 printed pages equates to anything like $60, why are we giving them out free to the FTFs? They're the commercial part of our organisation and the cost of these things is part of their business running expenses and therefore fully tax deductible for them. When I had a commercial operation I had to pay for all my copies of Manuals, Charts, Regs, Orders, and the Amendment Service which amounted to thousands of dollars per year to supply the pilots and bases. Some of those comments above, happily accepting the price, are made by folks who aren't even members and/or don't fly, so they aren't going to be buying it anyway ... Part of November Newsletter (1 or 2, I can't remember) made it very clear that the Board intended to keep in mind the grass-roots aspects of the organisation (i.e. cheap flying) but here we are charging 1/3 the cost of the annual membership for just one document! And - given that I have a decent laser printer at home I was able to print my own copy, many folk may not be able to. The whole process including manual punching just 10 sheets at a time, and manual guillotining, took me less than 10 minutes - and half of that was making the printer settings which I wouldn't have to repeat if I wanted more copies. The real cost to me was 0.8c per sheet for the printer and 0.7c per sheet for the paper (x40 sheets = 60c!). If I got an office girl to do the printing and punching etc, at $25/hr, you might add $2 to the cost. The real time/cost of the girl (or boy, no sexism here ...) putting it into an envelope and addressing it might be 3mins, so say $1.50. It's less than 20mm thick (11mm on 80gsm paper) so it can be mailed at standard letter rate of 70c. So - the Grand Total REAL cost is - 60c + $2 + $1.50 + 70c + 2c (envelope) = $4.82. And that's delivered to your door having been produced at home-office prices. A professional printer and office ought to do a fair bit better than that. I still say $60 is a bit rich! 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Contact your local rep 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 It would have been nice to have had a hard copy. If I had that, I might have even sat down and read it or at least had a flick through it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic36 Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Automotive operating Manuals can run from $220.00 to $450.00 if they have to be bound. Yes, but the price for those would be arrived at using the same formula they use for spare parts prices i.e if you can get it somewhere else it is cost of production x10 , if you can only get it from us then it's cost of production x100.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coljones Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Yes, whatever, but the Ops Manual doesn't have to be bound, or even provide an A5 clip binder which costs 60c for a Burroughs brand at Officeworks. Presumably most people will still have their clip binder from the Version 6 Ops Manual? So all that's needed is the punching.Since we're obviously so 'conditioned' by Govt departments to paying exorbitant prices for basic paperwork let's put a couple of things in perspective here - If anyone really thinks the cost of this 40 double sided A4 printed pages equates to anything like $60, why are we giving them out free to the FTFs? They're the commercial part of our organisation and the cost of these things is part of their business running expenses and therefore fully tax deductible for them. When I had a commercial operation I had to pay for all my copies of Manuals, Charts, Regs, Orders, and the Amendment Service which amounted to thousands of dollars per year to supply the pilots and bases. Some of those comments above, happily accepting the price, are made by folks who aren't even members and/or don't fly, so they aren't going to be buying it anyway ... Part of November Newsletter (1 or 2, I can't remember) made it very clear that the Board intended to keep in mind the grass-roots aspects of the organisation (i.e. cheap flying) but here we are charging 1/3 the cost of the annual membership for just one document! And - given that I have a decent laser printer at home I was able to print my own copy, many folk may not be able to. The whole process including manual punching just 10 sheets at a time, and manual guillotining, took me less than 10 minutes - and half of that was making the printer settings which I wouldn't have to repeat if I wanted more copies. The real cost to me was 0.8c per sheet for the printer and 0.7c per sheet for the paper (x40 sheets = 60c!). If I got an office girl to do the printing and punching etc, at $25/hr, you might add $2 to the cost. The real time/cost of the girl (or boy, no sexism here ...) putting it into an envelope and addressing it might be 3mins, so say $1.50. It's less than 20mm thick (11mm on 80gsm paper) so it can be mailed at standard letter rate of 70c. So - the Grand Total REAL cost is - 60c + $2 + $1.50 + 70c + 2c (envelope) = $4.82. And that's delivered to your door having been produced at home-office prices. A professional printer and office ought to do a fair bit better than that. I still say $60 is a bit rich! (0.8+0.7)*(155+57+4+4)=$3.30. As a first pass I would inflate your calculation by 5 to $24.10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhysmcc Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 If you don't mind the cost, then go out and get it printed and made. Don't force the rest of us to bear the cost of you not being prepared to use a digital version. The money has to come from somewhere, and we don't have $200,000 to spend ($20x10,000 members). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 You cynic Sk. The main costs there are what we pay the ad agencies, the writing and compiling costs etc, but after reading the above posts, I think Head In The Clouds is Heading In The Right Direction if hard copies are required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank marriott Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Print v paper problems. I prefer to work from a printed form. The big "but" , as mentioned earlier, is amendments to paper docs. My approach is, for example, a maintenance manual - print out only the few pages applicable the the job being done at the time. For the ops manual I treat it more as a "read & remember" document, or to refresh the memory. Committing to memory only those sections that are applicable to your own type of operation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head in the clouds Posted December 3, 2014 Author Share Posted December 3, 2014 If you don't mind the cost, then go out and get it printed and made. Don't force the rest of us to bear the cost of you not being prepared to use a digital version.The money has to come from somewhere, and we don't have $200,000 to spend ($20x10,000 members). I guess it's hot up in N Qld at the moment ... I never suggested that free hard copies should be distributed to anyone. My posts above reveal that I am a supporter of cost recovery (see Post #1) and I don't think they should be given free to anyone (see Post #11, re: my comment about them being given free to FTFs) but I do think printed copies should be available at a reasonable cost to those who cannot easily print and bind their own since they are a critical operational document. I think $60 is unreasonable, it's daylight bloody robbery, it's a 1200% profit margin! I wouldn't give a rats if RAAus was selling headsets, T shirts or caps for a 12 million percent profit but these are op docs that everyone is supposed to have, read and comply with. It's OK for me, I can print my own but I already know of two people who have said they won't read it online, or on any screen, and they won't pay $60 for a printed copy. Where's the sense in that? coljones is a businessman and his version of the costing is correct when applied to a profit making business, which RAAus is NOT, RAAus is a not-for-profit organisation. So - if Col's figure represents that of profitable business and the price in that arena suggests $24.10, where did $60 come from? If there's one way to ensure that the members don't read the operational documents, and hence don't know what they should be doing in the air, it's to make those documents stupidly costly. I've shown that I could make a very tidy and easy 100% profit by offering printed, punched and mailed copies to members for $10, I'm not going to do it because it's not my job (like other members, I pay the RAAus to do it) so why can't RAAus do it? Is it time they put these sort of things out to tender? I would be very interested to know how much RAAus will be paying the printer that supplies the copies for free distribution to FTFs ... if it's more than $5/copy then I think it warrants investigation, we're only talking 40 sheets of paper here ... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunder Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 So...... anyone want a paper copy? $59.50 only.....plus P+H. Cheaper than RAA!!!!!!! PM me....... Edit......only joking by the way...... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhysmcc Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 It could be they are trying to encourage members to use the digital version. The plan was to update the Ops manual on a more regular bases with total reviews every couple of years. That's a lot of wasted printing and money just because peopler refused to get with the times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coljones Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 I guess it's hot up in N Qld at the moment ...I never suggested that free hard copies should be distributed to anyone. My posts above reveal that I am a supporter of cost recovery (see Post #1) and I don't think they should be given free to anyone (see Post #11, re: my comment about them being given free to FTFs) but I do think printed copies should be available at a reasonable cost to those who cannot easily print and bind their own since they are a critical operational document. I think $60 is unreasonable, it's daylight bloody robbery, it's a 1200% profit margin! I wouldn't give a rats if RAAus was selling headsets, T shirts or caps for a 12 million percent profit but these are op docs that everyone is supposed to have, read and comply with. It's OK for me, I can print my own but I already know of two people who have said they won't read it online, or on any screen, and they won't pay $60 for a printed copy. Where's the sense in that? coljones is a businessman and his version of the costing is correct when applied to a profit making business, which RAAus is NOT, RAAus is a not-for-profit organisation. So - if Col's figure represents that of profitable business and the price in that arena suggests $24.10, where did $60 come from? If there's one way to ensure that the members don't read the operational documents, and hence don't know what they should be doing in the air, it's to make those documents stupidly costly. I've shown that I could make a very tidy and easy 100% profit by offering printed, punched and mailed copies to members for $10, I'm not going to do it because it's not my job (like other members, I pay the RAAus to do it) so why can't RAAus do it? Is it time they put these sort of things out to tender? I would be very interested to know how much RAAus will be paying the printer that supplies the copies for free distribution to FTFs ... if it's more than $5/copy then I think it warrants investigation, we're only talking 40 sheets of paper here ... The total size of the manual, syllabus, changes and FAQs is 220 pages. I am an IT person and know that actual expenditures escalates till it is at least 5 times your original estimate. But $60 is a bit steep. If I was a business man I would sell it for $20 plus p+p and gouge you on the p+p I don't have a problem with a freeby to the clubs and FTFs as that would provide a reference copy available to all (almost) - as in, hey Dave my computer's broke can I come out and have a look at your copy of the Ops Manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 It could be they are trying to encourage members to use the digital version. The plan was to update the Ops manual on a more regular bases with total reviews every couple of years. That's a lot of wasted printing and money just because peopler refused to get with the times. Not a waste of printing at all if it is loose leaf and updated pages are supplied ready to replace only the superseded pages. When we all have an ipad I might feel differently about it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffreywh Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 I'm going to give "office works" a try, They did the Jab manuals quite cheaply 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head in the clouds Posted December 3, 2014 Author Share Posted December 3, 2014 The total size of the manual, syllabus, changes and FAQs is 220 pages. I am an IT person and know that actual expenditures escalates till it is at least 5 times your original estimate. But $60 is a bit steep. If I was a business man I would sell it for $20 plus p+p and gouge you on the p+pI don't have a problem with a freeby to the clubs and FTFs as that would provide a reference copy available to all (almost) - as in, hey Dave my computer's broke can I come out and have a look at your copy of the Ops Manual. There's no need to have a printed copy of the syllabus, changes and FAQs, just the current Ops Manual, a total of 155 A5 pages not 220, it's just 39 double-sided A4 sheets! I don't know how being an IT person gives you any more knowledge of printing costs than anyone else but I have a drafting office and print 100,000 to 200,000 sheets in-house annually and I can assure you that the costing I posted is accurate to within 5%. I own my Company and keep a close eye on costs and expenditure, if my estimates were out by a factor of 5 I don't think I'd have lasted 40 years so far ... but I gave you the credit anyway, as even your bloated estimate demonstrates the folly of the RAAus pricing. I agree with the view stated by others that it would be a waste to dispose of a $60 manual every time there was an amendment, but that's the point, it should be a $10 manual incl p+p then it wouldn't matter so much, and RAAus would still be making 100% profit on each re-sale. However, even that isn't the point. I know most folks here don't come from GA or a commercial background but in that arena the old docs don't get thrown out each time there's an amendment, just the page that changes is replaced with a new one, a note made in the amendments index at the front, and the amendment itself has a vertical black line in the margin to alert the reader to the change. If RAAus just adopted what has been standard practice for probably 50yrs, instead of re-inventing the wheel, it might save a bit of mucking around. EDIT - yes, thanks rankamateur, spot on. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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