a quiz about fire

[pmccarthy]

You are cruising at 7500 feet when suddenly the cockpit fills with smoke. You make a Mayday call, switch off the master and generator switches, turn off the fuel, pull the mixture and switch off the mags. Now you want to get down onto that paddock below as quickly as possible. What do you do?

 

Set your best rate of climb speed, as that may also be the best rate of descent.

 

The same, but with full flap.

 

Pull back into a stall, holding wings level with rudder, let it fall from the sky.

 

Maintain your cruise speed.

 

Push the nose down and hold at VNE.

 

Stall and spin, though the aircraft is not rated for it.

 

Another approach.

 

Let's hear them.......

 

 

[Robbo]

Prey to the lord jesus.

 

 

[KRviator]

Depends on the aircraft I think. A VNE descent with a constant speed prop is likely to lead to higher descent rates than a 90* bank with 4G applied and letting the nose fall through the horizon.

 

The -9 is well known as having quite an efficient wing, so until I complete the flight testing to figure out what works best for it, I'd probably go the steep spiral dive.

 

 

[mnewbery]

When subsequent flight of your aircraft seems unlikely, limitations in the pilots' operating handbook become "suggestions".

 

Did you want to land in the paddock and still be on fire or put the fire out?

 

If it's the latter, my choice and the instruction I was provided was fly at VNE (therefore no flap). If that doesn't put the fire out, my instruction was to think about going faster than that. 7500 feet is quite a few minutes to be on fire AND descending. Put the fire out first, always.

 

After the fire is extinguished I might be closer to the ground and in a better situation to judge the landing without smoke and flames.

 

Caveat: Read your aircraft POH and talk to your instructor.

 

 

[IBob]

The spiral dive used to be popular for minimising flight time in jump planes. I haven't seen it so much recently, though I have an idea that's more to do with caring for the aircraft. We used to bluddy hate it on the occasions we had to come down with the aircraft, and it occurs to me that a pilot would need to have some practice in that manouvre, rather than attempting it the first time in a high stress situation?

 

 

[Geoff13]

You are cruising at 7500 feet when suddenly the cockpit fills with smoke. You make a Mayday call, switch off the master and generator switches, turn off the fuel, pull the mixture and switch off the mags. Now you want to get down onto that paddock below as quickly as possible. What do you do?Set your best rate of climb speed, as that may also be the best rate of descent.

 

The same, but with full flap.

 

Pull back into a stall, holding wings level with rudder, let it fall from the sky.

 

Maintain your cruise speed.

 

Push the nose down and hold at VNE.

 

Stall and spin, though the aircraft is not rated for it.

 

Another approach.

 

Let's hear them.......

Been there done that!

 

 

[mnewbery]

[Head in the clouds]

As others have mentioned it may well vary according to the type you are flying - and the advisories in the POH.

 

There is a 'standard' procedure for a smoke filled cockpit and/or engine bay fire - you haven't said which it is. You suggested promptly switching off your engine when in fact it may well have been an electrical short and the wiring was causing the smoke while nothing was wrong with your powerplant, so you might put yourself in some additional jeopardy, for the landing perhaps, by turning off a perfectly functional engine ... probably best to be sure it's a fuel/oil fire before killing the engine and/or turning off the fuel.

 

After, or even during the Mayday, pax briefing etc, the standard procedure calls for opening all cockpit vents and slipping the aircraft in the direction which keeps the smoke at the very least away from the pilot, and hopefully improves his/her visibility as well. It's one of the few times when you must consider your welfare well before that of anyone else's, an incapacitated pilot can't save the others on board of course ...

 

As far as the quickest descent and one which satisfies the slipped aspect to keep the cockpit clear of smoke (and flames perhaps) - it might depend on pilot ability, and IBob's comment about currency in the manoeuvre is absolutely on the mark (maybe we should all practice more ...). My preference would always be for a very high rate of turning slip (not skid!) because I've shown that on the types I have flown I can get the best rate of descent that way, stay over or look for a good outlanding, and keep the airspeed stable and well below anything that would overstress the airframe. I've regularly achieved 4000ft/min+ descent rate in several types using that method.

 

 

[Kununurra]

Question ....... What do we use to put the fire out ? If it is a dry powder extinguisher (red with a white band)you can kiss your vision goodbye if it is a BCF extinguisher (yellow) the fire will be extinguished rapidly in most cases but given that you are in an enclosed space you may have difficulty breathing.

 

Who Carries a fire extinguisher with them on every flight ?

 

Back to the original question I would want to get down as quick as possible so it would be close to VNE for me I see this as a good better best.

 

 

[facthunter]

You need to make sure you won't be affected by the smoke, as if you are incapacitated you are no use. Use outside air as a smoke free source.

 

It would be important to be able to decide whether it's electrical or fuel/oil . Often electrical will have a characteristic smell. If it's electrical it's a simpler procedure if your electrical system is designed well and the principle is to isolate the electrical sources (battery and alternator) and fault find if enough time.

 

If fuel, turn the fuel selector off, and any pumps. If it's oil feather the engine if possible.

 

In flight fire needs you to be on the ground as soon as possible but not to crash an aeroplane that's already on fire. One of the risks is the engine fire will burn into the cockpit area fairly quickly, in a conventional aircraft.

 

Personally I would seriously consider spinning the plane to get it down as it's not being stressed and the airflow may fan and spread the fire with a high airspeed descent. It's one of the situations where a ballistic chute is not helpful. Nev

 

 

[djpacro]

[Ultralights]

sideslip...................

 

 

[old man emu]

By turning off the electrical power, you won't stop the engine. Don't forget that aero engines have an independent spark generation system (magnetos). You will just lose any electrical powered equipment, but at this stage of the flight, the need for them has gone. Loss of radio might be a nuisance.

 

Cover your nose and mouth with cloth of some sort to filter out the smoke particles. They will do you in faster that carbon monoxide, and will prevent flame from damaging your breathing system.

 

Side slip with left wing down. Keeps the smoke and flames away from the pilot. (Next time you go out for a bit of a joy flight do some side slipping and watch the Vertical Speed indicator to see what rate of descent you can get. You shouldn't get near VNE, so structural failure won't be an issue.)

 

Don't forget that the firewall is made of fire resistant material, so it might get hot, but it should not let fire break through. (That's why it is called a 'fire wall')

 

If you have wing tanks, shut off the flow from the high side tank. A tank full of fuel won't burn, but flowing fuel will.

 

If the cabin fills with smoke, punch a hole through the side covering if possible to create an draught.

 

Curse yourself for thinking that you thought tie-down pegs and a hammer are more important to carry than a 2kg fire extinguisher.

 

That's my five cents' worth (inflation, you know.)

 

How about some personal fire protection advice from a trained fire-fighter?

 

OME

 

 

[facthunter]

IF it's an electrical fire, you turn off the electrics. It's nothing to do with stopping the engine It's stopping the electrical fire by isolating the cause.

 

Similar with the fuel/oil You shut off the fuel to reduce it's availability and stopping the engine will reduce/ stop the oil flow.Nev

 

 

[KRviator]

By turning off the electrical power, you won't stop the engine. Don't forget that aero engines have an independent spark generation system (magnetos). You will just lose any electrical powered equipment, but at this stage of the flight, the need for them has gone. Loss of radio might be a nuisance.

Not always correct, many modern experimental aircraft do not have a traditional magneto ignition system. Mine doesn't, and it is by no means unique, so shutting down the electrics can, in some cases, shut down the engine too. That being said, the P-Mags on mine have a internal alternator to self-power them, but the previous E-Mag versions don't. Others may have dual electric fuel pumps instead of an engine driven pump. (Low wing with an H2AD engine for example).Which is why procedures given here for one aircraft may not necessarily work with another, and you must know the systems of aircraft you're flying. If it is your aircraft, rather than spend $100 of fuel just boring holes in the sky, get to altitude, throttle back and see how quickly you can get down using various techniques. Learn what a 3G spiral dive feels like so you don't need to be looking inside at a G-meter or a now-blank EFIS screen. Listen to the wind noise close to VNE and try riding a stall down through several thousand feet to compare descent rates.

 

Hopefully you'll never have to use any of these techniques, but better to know which one works best for you if you do need to!

 

 

[kaz3g]

[ATTACH=full]40761[/ATTACH]

I knew there was something I'd forgotten to include in my run up checks...?

 

Kaz

 

 

[kaz3g]

One of the few worries I have with emergencies I n the Auster is an in-flight fire. The only metal skin is the bit the engine is wrapped in; the rest is fabric.

 

The main tank is under the scuttle (ie over my legs and immediately aft of the engine) and I sit on top of the auxiliary (belly tank).

 

I like Nev's solution of descending in a spin for the rapid rate of descent, but I'd be worried about spreading the fire to the outside wing and along the fuselage on the same side.

 

I carry a BCF but not a slimpack so bailing out is not an option. I think if the fire was in the engine bay I'd stick to my planned big side slip to try to minimise the rate of spread rearward.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Robbo]

Remember: DO NOT FART

 

Or you may make the fire bigger :)

 

Oh the good old days of lighting your farts and shooting out a huge blue flame.

 

Sorry, should not make jokes within a serious topic.

 

 

[kaz3g]

How did you know?

 

Kaz

 

 

[Geoff13]

http://recreationalflying.com/threads/incident-13-may-15.136397/

[facthunter]

Spinning the aircraft is the only way to get a high ROD without stressing the airframe. You never get a high airspeed. This is not applicable to jet aircraft which have an option of high speed or high drag with ROD's of about 10,000 fpm. Means you get to 10,000 feet from most cruise altitudes in about 3 minutes. Nev

 

 

[Downunder]

Descent would be (could be) faster with engine running or stopped ?

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Seems to me if you are in a dive at VNE with engine off, then starting the engine can only add lift and reduce the rate of descent. That power has to do something. You will be doing VNE in a much flatter dive.

 

 

[facthunter]

At high speeds it will probably absorb power with throttle closed, but it's not worth worrying about from that aspect as it's a moot point except for a turboprop where there is potential for a lot of drag from the prop. Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

Constant speed props are very good at reducing speed of the plane in the circuit area. they can act as a brake, so an idling engine at Vne would also act as a brake even if it is fixed pitch.