Camit closing

[eightyknots]

The answer is simple, sell the business to the Chinese, there will be cheap engines before you know it.David

...or wait for the BEX-2017 aircraft engine to roll off the production line!

 

 

[Oscar]

Correct, it's known as eddy heat transfer. You'll find plenty of articles on it.

Quite, quite incorrect.

 

In an surface-to air transfer situation with forced air induction giving high airspeed, a rough ( i.e. cast) surface will produce a deep laminar flow area and negate the rate of heat transfer. 'Eddy heat transfer' is a complete furphy in the case of surface-to-air heat transfer..

 

 

[facthunter]

Tapered sectioned fins are more efficient and a "radial" finned head is real good but hard to make. Sand blasted surfaces (Black high temp paint ) with a thin coating or anodised a dark colour will dissipate heat better. Fins can be too big and if very fine need a cowling/baffles to make them work best to direct the airflow. The conductivity of the metal is important. Silver ,copper and aluminium are good, steel is fair only and carbon isn't good. (Carbon isn't a metal but it gets into engines and forms hot spots). Polished surfaces don't dissipate heat. That's why the best teapots are polished. Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

It doesn't have to be rough cast. There is a "best " finish and relates to the wavelength of the radiated energy for optimum effect. Adelaide university (among many others) did research some while back , and it should be available. It's no secret. The point it Highly polished aluminium is not a good radiator of heat. Nev

 

 

[Marty_d]

Polished surfaces don't dissipate heat. That's why the best teapots are polished. Nev

By Jove! I thought the jolly old teapot was polished because that's what the servants are for, lazy blighters. Well, toodle-pip, old fruit!

 

 

[planedriver]

Toodle-Pip?

 

Gordon Bennet! I ain't eard that term in a long while.

 

"Fair Ginkum", that's now got you a bit confussed Marty!

 

 

[Marty_d]

Toodle-Pip?Gordon Bennet! I ain't eard that term in a long while.

"Fair Ginkum", that's now got you a bit confussed Marty!

Just channeling my inner Bertie Wooster, don't you know.

 

 

[planedriver]

So while you're posting, How's the 701 progressing, or is a retirement project mate? I have a few of them too.

 

Maybe you need a "blue with the misses" to get you out in the shed? Only joking!

 

 

[WayneL]

From some of the above posts I get the impression that sime of you have not taken the time to read Rod Stiff's statement that was posted recently on the Jabiru facebook site. Here is is........

 

Wayne.

 

From the Directors Desk

 

As expected there has been much discussion on forums and in the media about the closure of yet another Australian Manufacturer. In the years prior to 2009 the aviation market was experiencing a boom period. World-wide demand for products was high, especially in America and South Africa. It was a time of waiting lists and ramping up production to meet demand. Then in one fell swoop in 2008 the GFC occurred and markets were wiped out overnight. Our American market (the majority of our business) virtually disappeared within a week. No-one could have foreseen the GFC and we all had hope there would be some recovery in the months and years that followed however it was a long slow road to recovery.

 

The flow on effects of the GFC did more than simply wipe out demand. Australia’s banking system was in very good shape which caused a massive in-flow of deposits in to Australian banks. This in turn pushed the Australian Dollar up to $1.10 US Dollars. This rapid rise in the AU Dollar from 0.75 cents to $1.10 completed the wipe out of our export market and also led to a flood of imports. The subsequent introduction of LSA meant manufacturers no longer had to face the costs of governmental compliance so a hundred or more new manufacturers emerged and increased competition on the domestic market dramatically. Jabiru’s share of the world and domestic markets dropped dramatically. Fortunately we were structured to be able to operate at this diminished level and still remain profitable.

 

Prior to Jabiru, as many of you will know, I previously worked for many years in the sugar cane industry. I was an engineer and a senior manager of a local company manufacturing sugar cane harvesters for the world market. The success and fortunes of this industry rose and fell on the world prices for sugar. Anyone who has run a business locked in to world commodity prices for agricultural products will know it takes considerable management skills to sustain a business in a market with wild fluctuations in demand. The harvesting business survived until it was taken over by a multi-national company and shipped to Brazil. I learnt many valuable lessons in these years.

 

From this experience I learnt early on in the development of Jabiru to expect the unexpected and to structure a business to survive huge fluctuations in the market. My business principle has been to utilise contractors where ever possible to minimize the huge capital investment required for machinery and buildings. Our premises are humble, we keep it simple. Our profits are used to invest in research and development, design and marketing, certification and staff development.

 

When the world wide demand for product started to increase significantly back in 2006, I very strongly advised our major suppliers, including CAMit not to go in to massive amounts of debt to meet this demand but rather to look at the possibility of out-sourcing to contractors and other strategies. My advice to CAMit at this time in 2006, so they could stay viable in the long term was to start the process of converting the Jabiru engine to castings rather than machining from solid to reduce the capital input and massive debt that would be required for more machinery and new premises. This advice and direction was strongly rebuffed by CAMit. Jabiru at this time obtained prices from New Zealand suppliers for crankcase castings. Jabiru was fully prepared and offered to fund the entire pattern and associated costs for CAMit to implement this development. This however was also rebuffed. I could foresee the capital required for machinery was dangerously high and debt funded, and could place them in a precarious position. 2006 was the beginning of the research and development of the cast engine that would require very low capital input for machinery. Ideally, I had hoped CAMit would come on this journey and continue to produce and develop the next generation Jabiru engines however two different directions and thought processes were occurring.

 

When the GFC did strike in 2008 and the market disappeared I became very concerned that CAMit’s business may not be sustainable on this dramatically reduced volume. From experience, I knew this was the time for aggressive management action and restructuring by CAMit in order for them to remain viable. To allow CAMit time for this re-structure, Jabiru continued to order and buy engines when there was simply no market in an attempt to assist and keep them viable. This in turn forced Jabiru in to a borrowing situation to continue purchasing engines to the point where we had over 360 engines in stock. Jabiru’s own survivability as well as CAMit’s had to be seriously considered at this point. Insufficient action seemed to be taken by CAMit to reduce debt and I became increasingly concerned. What would happen to our valued customer base of 6,500 engines and 2,100 airframes worldwide if we were left without an engine manufacturer. Jabiru has been my life’s work and I feel a deep responsibility for our customer base and my staff.

 

Jabiru had already experienced early on in our development the failure of one engine manufacturer, KFM. At the time, this pushed the company to the brink and very nearly spelt the end for Jabiru. Everything Yvonne and I owned was mortgaged to the hilt to keep the company alive. I had visions of the same thing possibly happening again. It became increasingly evident that I needed to insulate the company as much as possible to ensure our longevity in the market should the unthinkable happen. I held grave concerns and sympathy for the situation CAMit was in.

 

Understandably, CAMit had to look to diversification and obtain other contracts. We were pleased and heartened when they obtained mining support work. Mining work is extremely competitive however and when the mining industry also experienced a contraction in demand it was another blow for CAMit. We were saddened, but not surprised when CAMit then entered the retail market with a look-alike Jabiru engine. Desperate needs leads to desperate deeds and I understood. I sincerely hoped that CAMit would survive. I am always saddened by the demise of any form of Australian Manufacturing be it competition or not.

 

CASA limitations further damaged our market world- wide and if it were not for our astute financial management and complete absence of debt we would have perished. We have been able to maintain our workforce and carry on.

 

As with the on-going research and development of any engine there are highs and lows, however at all times I have endeavoured to build an affordable, light weight, reliable engine and air frame that would enable the average man to enjoy the pleasures of flight. In this endeavour we have been successful and our brand is now known around the world. There has been much criticism of Jabiru but I remain fiercely driven and proud of the products we produce as a small concern with limited funds using many Australian suppliers.

 

As it stands today we have stock on the shelf and are arranging supply of the majority of components to support existing engines and spare parts. We are progressively placing the remainder of components with suitably qualified factories. We will put in our best effort to have a seamless transition for spare parts and engines.

 

Rodney Stiff

 

Managing Director

 

 

[jetjr]

Many have read it but have a different take on events than Rod does

 

 

[ROGER.G]

From some of the above posts I get the impression that sime of you have not taken the time to read Rod Stiff's statement that was posted recently on the Jabiru facebook site. Here is is........Wayne.

From the Directors Desk

 

As expected there has been much discussion on forums and in the media about the closure of yet another Australian Manufacturer. In the years prior to 2009 the aviation market was experiencing a boom period. World-wide demand for products was high, especially in America and South Africa. It was a time of waiting lists and ramping up production to meet demand. Then in one fell swoop in 2008 the GFC occurred and markets were wiped out overnight. Our American market (the majority of our business) virtually disappeared within a week. No-one could have foreseen the GFC and we all had hope there would be some recovery in the months and years that followed however it was a long slow road to recovery.

 

The flow on effects of the GFC did more than simply wipe out demand. Australia’s banking system was in very good shape which caused a massive in-flow of deposits in to Australian banks. This in turn pushed the Australian Dollar up to $1.10 US Dollars. This rapid rise in the AU Dollar from 0.75 cents to $1.10 completed the wipe out of our export market and also led to a flood of imports. The subsequent introduction of LSA meant manufacturers no longer had to face the costs of governmental compliance so a hundred or more new manufacturers emerged and increased competition on the domestic market dramatically. Jabiru’s share of the world and domestic markets dropped dramatically. Fortunately we were structured to be able to operate at this diminished level and still remain profitable.

 

Prior to Jabiru, as many of you will know, I previously worked for many years in the sugar cane industry. I was an engineer and a senior manager of a local company manufacturing sugar cane harvesters for the world market. The success and fortunes of this industry rose and fell on the world prices for sugar. Anyone who has run a business locked in to world commodity prices for agricultural products will know it takes considerable management skills to sustain a business in a market with wild fluctuations in demand. The harvesting business survived until it was taken over by a multi-national company and shipped to Brazil. I learnt many valuable lessons in these years.

 

From this experience I learnt early on in the development of Jabiru to expect the unexpected and to structure a business to survive huge fluctuations in the market. My business principle has been to utilise contractors where ever possible to minimize the huge capital investment required for machinery and buildings. Our premises are humble, we keep it simple. Our profits are used to invest in research and development, design and marketing, certification and staff development.

 

When the world wide demand for product started to increase significantly back in 2006, I very strongly advised our major suppliers, including CAMit not to go in to massive amounts of debt to meet this demand but rather to look at the possibility of out-sourcing to contractors and other strategies. My advice to CAMit at this time in 2006, so they could stay viable in the long term was to start the process of converting the Jabiru engine to castings rather than machining from solid to reduce the capital input and massive debt that would be required for more machinery and new premises. This advice and direction was strongly rebuffed by CAMit. Jabiru at this time obtained prices from New Zealand suppliers for crankcase castings. Jabiru was fully prepared and offered to fund the entire pattern and associated costs for CAMit to implement this development. This however was also rebuffed. I could foresee the capital required for machinery was dangerously high and debt funded, and could place them in a precarious position. 2006 was the beginning of the research and development of the cast engine that would require very low capital input for machinery. Ideally, I had hoped CAMit would come on this journey and continue to produce and develop the next generation Jabiru engines however two different directions and thought processes were occurring.

 

When the GFC did strike in 2008 and the market disappeared I became very concerned that CAMit’s business may not be sustainable on this dramatically reduced volume. From experience, I knew this was the time for aggressive management action and restructuring by CAMit in order for them to remain viable. To allow CAMit time for this re-structure, Jabiru continued to order and buy engines when there was simply no market in an attempt to assist and keep them viable. This in turn forced Jabiru in to a borrowing situation to continue purchasing engines to the point where we had over 360 engines in stock. Jabiru’s own survivability as well as CAMit’s had to be seriously considered at this point. Insufficient action seemed to be taken by CAMit to reduce debt and I became increasingly concerned. What would happen to our valued customer base of 6,500 engines and 2,100 airframes worldwide if we were left without an engine manufacturer. Jabiru has been my life’s work and I feel a deep responsibility for our customer base and my staff.

 

Jabiru had already experienced early on in our development the failure of one engine manufacturer, KFM. At the time, this pushed the company to the brink and very nearly spelt the end for Jabiru. Everything Yvonne and I owned was mortgaged to the hilt to keep the company alive. I had visions of the same thing possibly happening again. It became increasingly evident that I needed to insulate the company as much as possible to ensure our longevity in the market should the unthinkable happen. I held grave concerns and sympathy for the situation CAMit was in.

 

Understandably, CAMit had to look to diversification and obtain other contracts. We were pleased and heartened when they obtained mining support work. Mining work is extremely competitive however and when the mining industry also experienced a contraction in demand it was another blow for CAMit. We were saddened, but not surprised when CAMit then entered the retail market with a look-alike Jabiru engine. Desperate needs leads to desperate deeds and I understood. I sincerely hoped that CAMit would survive. I am always saddened by the demise of any form of Australian Manufacturing be it competition or not.

 

CASA limitations further damaged our market world- wide and if it were not for our astute financial management and complete absence of debt we would have perished. We have been able to maintain our workforce and carry on.

 

As with the on-going research and development of any engine there are highs and lows, however at all times I have endeavoured to build an affordable, light weight, reliable engine and air frame that would enable the average man to enjoy the pleasures of flight. In this endeavour we have been successful and our brand is now known around the world. There has been much criticism of Jabiru but I remain fiercely driven and proud of the products we produce as a small concern with limited funds using many Australian suppliers.

 

As it stands today we have stock on the shelf and are arranging supply of the majority of components to support existing engines and spare parts. We are progressively placing the remainder of components with suitably qualified factories. We will put in our best effort to have a seamless transition for spare parts and engines.

 

Rodney Stiff

 

Managing Director

Read it, very interesting. I think we can forget about any possibility of Jab taking over the CAMIT operation and continuing with an emphasis on CNC major components.

 

 

[jetjr]

Jabiru have very little CNC capability as far as I know, most parts are made elsewhere or imported.

 

Camit was the sole source of most major engine parts. Heads, cylinders, cases, cranks and maybe camshafts. They also assembled all new engines.

 

If and when the new engine gets going, Jabiru indicated plans to have new source cast cases, cylinders and heads.

 

 

[Downunder]

I keep being told Camit made engines to Jabiru spec.

 

Rod is saying Jabiru wanted to move to cast cases in 2006 but Camit refused?

 

I find that confusing.....who is/was running the show?

 

 

[Marty_d]

So while you're posting, How's the 701 progressing, or is a retirement project mate? I have a few of them too.Maybe you need a "blue with the misses" to get you out in the shed? Only joking!

It is progressing.... s l o w l y...

 

Got an hour yesterday to rivet up the last 2 flaperon skeletons, so another couple of hours and they should be done.

 

 

[440032]

Jabiru does indeed have in-house CNC capability.

 

 

[jetjr]

Good to know, they will be turning up crankshafts in no time.

 

 

[facthunter]

CAMit made them, and being sole supplier had a few cards to play. If Rod's idea's were markedly different, how would he get Ian to agree?. Ian is tooled up for a certain process and would no doubt forcefully promote his self interest if he believes fully in the direction he has chosen. You can easily see how the relationship could become toxic. Sole supplier and (most times) only customer situation needs careful management and where decisions directly affect the survival in an uncertain and difficult market, as it became , there is no room for divergence of direction. Each would see the other as the hazard to prosperity or even continuation of the venture. Nev

 

 

[Oscar]

When Rod Stiff first looked at casting as a process (and tried it with the 1600 engine), the Australian alloy casting industry could not meet quality standards. The only Aerospace capable foundry - CAC - had shut up shop. Only very recently has another foundry capable of aerospace-quality started up in Australia. CAMit's position was, that the amount of machining needed on a crankcase for a cast product necessitated a similar investment in machinery, and given the reject rate of castings for sumps being experienced, it was commercially better to utilise that machinery to produce reliable crankcases than to have to throw away dud castings. Why would Rod have ceased production of the 1600 engine after 65 or so examples if it had been successful? I can show those interested a 1600 crankcase that is utterly useless post-machining, due to the casting problems.

 

In order to meet the requirements for a training-capable aircraft, the early Jab. 2200 engines had to be certificated; Jabiru (like Rotax at the time) chose to go with JAR22h. The J2200C engine was certificated to the same standard as the Rotax 912A ( I think it was - the first 912 series, 80 hp.) Certification required QA standards and a manufacturer's Production Certificate issued by the National Authority responsible for implementation of the International standard - CASA. Jabiru did not hold a PC for casting and no Australian facility could have filled that gap.

 

 

[facthunter]

We have been producing world quality Alloy cast drag motors for years. Similar or superior to aero motors. Consistency is a problem and porosity can be. We made a lot of good stuff in the past. I believe we can again. I don't know how good the Jab crankcases are. They could be more stiff. (no pun intended) Do they distort? If that was common it would show when dismantled. I'd have liked to see lots of small studs around the edges of the cases. Nev

 

 

[scsirob]

.. Ian is tooled up for a certain process and would no doubt forcefully promote his self interest if he believes fully in the direction he has chosen.

Well, at 2006 they were gearing up to 90 engines a month, and Ian had just invested to make that happen. I wouldn't blame him if he would dismiss a request to change to a different process just after he just plunked a couple million into CNC gear. Maybe they even had contractual agreements. If I was in Ian's position, I wouldn't want to make huge investments for my single customer without some commitment either.

 

 

[scsirob]

Do they distort? If that was common it would show when dismantled.

There's always been issues with case fretting, indicating the case halves moved around. CAMit apparently had a process in place to improve this, but only time will tell. Don't think too many CAMit engines have been opened up yet to see if it was effective.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I'm still interested in the numbers... What is the debt and how much will the place go for when sold? For example, it the debt was 5 million and the sale price was 1 million then the business could be viable for a new owner.

 

A few years ago in Qld, something like this happened to some island resorts after a cyclone. The losers were the banks.

 

Just think of the cost of servicing the interest on 5 million.

 

At the risk of repeating this, if there is a consortium then investing in it might be a good idea.

 

 

[scsirob]

At the risk of repeating this, if there is a consortium then investing in it might be a good idea.

A bit tongue-in-cheek, but perhaps set up a crowd fund action? Sell certificates? There's 7000 engines out there. If each owner invests $500 then you have $3.5M to restart the business. Certificate owners get maintenance parts at 25% discount.

 

 

[jetjr]

I thought cases were pretty good, fretting related to joint method using loctite and variable tolerances it caused and maybe harmonics.

 

Tied in is whole throughbolt drama now blamed upon harmonics introduced by hydraulic lifters

 

If all that has been tamed, Camit by new bolts, solid lifters and differing assembly method, Jabiru by new bolts and harmonic damping methods, then the bottom end is pretty well bulletproof.

 

Next comes the new cast case, looks nice for sure but its a serious change to a engine where problems just been sorted out.

 

 

[Oscar]

Nev, the best drag engines I know of made in Aus. are produced by Phil O'Brien - a 1600 cc drag-bike engine that makes around 1000 hp, I believe!. It's all billet and CNC manufactured. Typically last a complete season without re-build..

 

As you would know, the critical factor in a split crankcase is reliability of the main bearing bore tunnel. Two factors important: the first being compression under assembly load, the second being any lateral movement between halves.

 

The standard Jab. assembly uses Loctite as a sealant - and requires (amongst other things) an assembly technique of precise timing and close control of ambient conditions. I've watched Jab. engines being assembled at CAMit, and it takes two well-trained people to get it right.

 

Jab. engine design uses hollow dowels between the cases, the through-bolts run inside the dowels. The CAE engine uses the through-bolts as the dowels. The difference being: cumulative differentials are one order for the CAE engine, two orders for Jabiru engines. I can verify from personal experience that the CAMit tolerances were sufficiently close that you could not assemble a CAE engine if ALL components were not at the same ambient temp.