180 degree power off landings

[Yenn]

Have a look at this article. It may help explain what is needed for safer flying.

 

Why Every Pilot Should Practice Power-Off 180 Landings

 

 

[Happyflyer]

It's what we call a glide approach. Everybody should practice it and fly a circuit size that makes it possible. Might tighten up the circuit size of a few!

 

 

[kaz3g]

It's what we call a glide approach. Everybody should practice it and fly a circuit size that makes it possible. Might tighten up the circuit size of a few!

I know the commercial students and their instructors are practising for the day they get into the right hand seat of an RPT machine, but I worry about their chances in the event of an engine failure during a wide circuit. More particularly, I worry about not being able to see them as I do the job just outside the boundary fence.

 

Kaz

 

 

[cooperplace]

oh yes, indeed!

[Bernie]

Was part of my training , plus one with both CDI's off midway down wind at Hervey Bay .

 

Bernie ..

 

 

[Yenn]

We might all have been trained that way, but how many do it after training? In fact how many do power off landings as a matter of course?

 

from the GA accident statistics I have seen it appears that a lot of landing short of the runway occurs, due to power failure on finals. Why?

 

 

[M61A1]

In fact how many do power off landings as a matter of course?

I know of three around here that practise it regularly, besides the terry toweling hat brigade nearby.

 

 

[facthunter]

A always tend to place myself high and minimise time in the circuit, because it's wasting time and money doing large circuits. I wouldn't over emphasise the power off glide for long periods as a cold motor won't be as reliable for go around and an idling motor is prone to stop as airspeed comes back if the idle isn't well adjusted.

 

Remember idle check taxiing on way out, and you return for rectification, if it's not as it should be. Perhaps in conditions where carb ice is very likely consider doing powered approaches with carb heat full on till flare. Keep in practice with the glide approaches by all means, but adjust to the conditions you find on the day. Realistically motors fail either at high power or idle and probably most failures are due to fuel supply problems. A motor running at say 30% is just loafing and keeping itself warm. Nev

 

 

[frank marriott]

I agree with Nev's view. Whilst circuits should not be XCountry flying fitting in with other traffic is also important. Some views that from downwind to touch down should be within gliding distance is at best questionable given that one may have just flown 2/3/4 hours XCountry then all of a sudden the last five minutes you have to be in gliding distance of an airfield - test flying after maintenance excepted.

 

 

[M61A1]

I agree with Nev's view. Whilst circuits should not be XCountry flying fitting in with other traffic is also important. Some views that from downwind to touch down should be within gliding distance is at best questionable given that one may have just flown 2/3/4 hours XCountry then all of a sudden the last five minutes you have to be in gliding distance of an airfield - test flying after maintenance excepted.

The idea, I think, as far as it concerns me, is to have a place to go. Flying XC, I would hope that you might cruise at an altitude that you can glide clear of any tiger country. There are a lot of airfields with not to many landing options once you are at circuit height. If someone chooses to put themselves in a position where they have no way out, that's their choice, but I do find it annoying to have to extend downwind, and give myself limited options while someone flys a 747 size circuit in an LSA. As far as glide approaches, it's more a matter of staying current than doing it every time. I have had the engine stop on short final, and the subsequent loss of thrust meant that I wasn't going to make the airfield. By design, I had another option, but at other airfields without that option, excuse me if I remain "high and tight".

 

 

[johnm]

Whats the legality where aircraft 1 and 2 are flying downwind

 

Aircraft 1 flies a 747 circuit and continues downwind say 2 miles

 

Aircraft 2 - following aircraft 1 downwind - calls and turns base at say half a mile - before aircraft 1 calls base ?

 

.......... can aircraft 2 legally do this ? - rather than follow aircraft 1

 

........... the thing being that aircraft 1 thinks that their circuit is safer than aircraft 2

 

 

[SDQDI]

Just make the call

 

"Turning base, have the aircraft departing on downwind in sight"

 

 

[turboplanner]

Just make the call"Turning base, have the aircraft departing on downwind in sight"

You'd be short a few teeth at a major airport.

These discussions always assume all aircraft have the same climb rate and can reach the circuit height in the same distance.

 

Part of the training in busy circuits is to be able to fly along at circuit height at slow speed, hanging on the prop if you need to slow down, or go like a cut snake if someone is coming up behind you, or adjust the turning point, and so on. An hour spent with an instructor at a busy time in a city airport will give you an insight into the techniques used to fit into the circuit, stay behind slower aircraft, and keep out of the way of faster aircraft; it's an art that needs to be learnt.

 

 

[M61A1]

You'd be short a few teeth at a major airport.These discussions always assume all aircraft have the same climb rate and can reach the circuit height in the same distance.

Part of the training in busy circuits is to be able to fly along at circuit height at slow speed, hanging on the prop if you need to slow down, or go like a cut snake if someone is coming up behind you, or adjust the turning point, and so on. An hour spent with an instructor at a busy time in a city airport will give you an insight into the techniques used to fit into the circuit, stay behind slower aircraft, and keep out of the way of faster aircraft; it's an art that needs to be learnt.

Sooooo.....I hang the Drifter on the prop, somewhere around 35 kts if I try, where does that put the poor bugger in the Jab behind me?

It's not about "fitting " into the circuit, it's about not putting yourself between a rock and a hard place if things go bad, all because the guy in front can't land unless they drag it n from 3 miles out.

 

The reality is that when it happens, usually, you would have plenty of time to land and be clear of the runway, the only real problem is the ego of the pilot who would think you've "pushed in" despite the fact there never was a conflict other than in their mind.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Sooooo.....I hang the Drifter on the prop, somewhere around 35 kts if I try, where does that put the poor bugger in the Jab behind me?It's not about "fitting " into the circuit, it's about not putting yourself between a rock and a hard place if things go bad, all because the guy in front can't land unless they drag it n from 3 miles out.

The reality is that when it happens, usually, you would have plenty of time to land and be clear of the runway, the only real problem is the ego of the pilot who would think you've "pushed in" despite the fact there never was a conflict other than in their mind.

Well if you were hanging your aircraft on the prop in front of a faster aircraft, I'd recommend some more training.

You shouldn't be in that situation anyway:

 

 

 

[M61A1]

Well if you were hanging your aircraft on the prop in front of a faster aircraft, I'd recommend some more training.You shouldn't be in that situation anyway:

[ATTACH=full]51647[/ATTACH]

It's exactly what YOU suggested though....I'm suggesting that it's not a good idea.

 

 

[turboplanner]

It's exactly what YOU suggested though....I'm suggesting that it's not a good idea.

No I didn't; you slow down to stay in pattern with a slower aircraft in front of you; you speed up to stay ahead of a faster aircraft behind you

 

 

[M61A1]

No I didn't; you slow down to stay in pattern with a slower aircraft in front of you; you speed up to stay ahead of a faster aircraft behind you

I can only assume that you do that in some kind of fourth dimension where you can slow down and speed up at the same time. More often than not a local events, there is a bit of a queue. So when one turns base three miles past the threshold , that pretty much commits the others to do the same, or just turn base and final land before they get there.

Most are fine, but there's always one.....

 

 

[SDQDI]

While my reply was tongue in cheek I have had a little think about it.

 

If I have an aircraft in front of me on downwind that has gone 2 miles past the threshold and hasn't turned base I would assume that they are leaving the circuit (talking generally about the 1000ft circuit traffic) after all that is nearly 4kms which imo is absolutely rediculous UNLESS they are extending because of other traffic in front of them.

 

If I have gone a half mile past the threshold and they hadn't turned after 2miles I would certainly check their intentions on the radio and in a good mood (should always be in a good mood when flying!) ask nicely if I could cut in.

 

It is a bit hard with hypothetical questions though as there are so many variables. For example if we were the only 2 in the circuit and they didn't want me cutting in I would probably turn base and maintain circuit height then turn upwind and do another circuit rather than exercise the priveledges of my xc endo.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I can only assume that you do that in some kind of fourth dimension where you can slow down and speed up at the same time. More often than not a local events, there is a bit of a queue. So when one turns base three miles past the threshold , that pretty much commits the others to do the same, or just turn base and final land before they get there.Most are fine, but there's always one.....

No need to slow down and speed up at the same time, but there will be a lot of speed variations in a circuit of 8 - 12 aircraft if you want to get down at the first attempt.

 

 

[facthunter]

Funny how in that Diagram/ schematic showing the 3 height possibilities they show the final approach angles wrong for what it would be in reality. The 500 ft Circuit type of aircraft would most likely have the steepest final approach and the 1500" feeder turboprop or jets would have 3 degrees. 10 NM 3,000 feet AGL profile, and the "normal" GA types quite a variation in between.

 

These large circuits really should be looked into. You could be forgiven for thinking they are departing the circuit . There's hardly a situation I can think of where it would be necessary to make them so big..Extending your downwind leg is the most effective way of losing time, but don't overdo it, as everyone behind you is affected. Speed variations with some aircraft are not so effective. ie a Thruster which climbs cruises and descends at much the same speed. I recall an Auster I was flying into Mascot in the 60's and a DC6b wasn't far behind that had me worried. I didn't want to send him round and the tower had slotted me in a bit tight. There would easy be a 60+knots speed difference once we were both on final. Nev

 

 

[M61A1]

At regional/local fly-in type events (in my area), most of the aircraft are recreational, with a mix of GA and Warbirds, and it's not usually GA or the Warbirds that do giant circuits.

 

They are not often held at airfields with RPT. Realistically, the type of flying I am referring to is usually an LSA driver. Usually the same driver will waffle on a lot on the radio, effectively delaying everyone else's radio calls as they try to fit in around the waffle.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Funny how in that Diagram/ schematic showing the 3 height possibilities they show the final approach angles wrong for what it would be in reality. The 500 ft Circuit type of aircraft would most likely have the steepest final approach and the 1500" feeder turboprop or jets would have 3 degrees. 10 NM 3,000 feet AGL profile, and the "normal" GA types quite a variation in between.These large circuits really should be looked into. You could be forgiven for thinking they are departing the circuit . There's hardly a situation I can think of where it would be necessary to make them so big..Extending your downwind leg is the most effective way of losing time, but don't overdo it, as everyone behind you is affected. Speed variations with some aircraft are not so effective. ie a Thruster which climbs cruises and descends at much the same speed. I recall an Auster I was flying into Mascot in the 60's and a DC6b wasn't far behind that had me worried. I didn't want to send him round and the tower had slotted me in a bit tight. There would easy be a 60+knots speed difference once we were both on final. Nev

Thrusters, Drifters, Trikes would be calling final at 250 ft approx and closer in to the strip, so if you are calling final at 500 feet they will have a good start and you still have the option for short-field speed.

 

 

[Geoff13]

This is a truly interesting dilemma.

 

I find at Caboolture where it is not unusual to have 6-8 aircraft in the circuit and more inbound it can become a problem.

 

Certainly on downwind for 12 or 06 I am always very wary of flying past my normal base turning point with respect to the conditions..

 

My options out there a very limited and it is not an area that I am comfortable putting myself.

 

If I am following someone in the circuit I always try to leave a good buffer zone between us depending on who is behind me.

 

It often happens at Caboolture that many light aircraft both RAA and GA fly huge circuits. Some disappear out of sight before turning base.

 

On 12 or 06 if I reach my normal base turning point for the conditions and the aircraft in front has not turned base yet then I will call and turn base.

 

Unless they are flying a jet or a twin then it is unlikely that there would be a conflict as my base turn will be within glide range of the threshold and I will be down and gone before they get back from wherever it is they go on these huge circuits.

 

On 30 or 24 there are plenty of options for outlanding and so long as they do not fly out of my fuel range, which some try to do then I am normally happy to follow them.

 

 

[turboplanner]

At regional/local fly-in type events (in my area), most of the aircraft are recreational, with a mix of GA and Warbirds, and it's not usually GA or the Warbirds that do giant circuits.They are not often held at airfields with RPT. Realistically, the type of flying I am referring to is usually an LSA driver. Usually the same driver will waffle on a lot on the radio, effectively delaying everyone else's radio calls as they try to fit in around the waffle.

That's a bit different I agree, low annual flying hours plus we've been talking about circuits for ten years and still people won't male the effort to learn heavy traffic techniques ans we get these silly radio calls "Sorry mate, she's busy isn't she!"