Angled Instruments

[Bruce Tuncks]

Well argued Head IC, and there is no doubt that you represent the majority view. I'm a dinosaur who believes in personal freedom and responsibility.

 

I don't want the be treated as a retard who needs officials to approve of every little thing I do.

 

 

[phonetic]

The only way around it is to be under experimental owner built category otherwise its under regulation 35 of CAR. not sure if under RAA regs Lev 1 owner maintenance if you can do own mods, would be nice to have 95.10 style regs with 600kg MTOW then you can DIY your own mods ??

 

 

[turboplanner]

With RA instrument panels so narrow, unless some of the dials are underize, this could be an astigmatism problem rather than an ergonomic one.

 

 

[Yenn]

I wonder how some people think an instrument can be angled, I fail to see how a 3d printer could help. If you made an angled 3D piece it would take up more room than the original straight instrument. I found out a similar problem when I put a hinged panel in my plane, the compass back end touches the top of the opening when the panel is part open. Not a problem for me I just remove the hinge pin,

 

 

[DGL Fox]

BirdDog, I find in my Sportstar that the only thing that is a bit frustrating is the taco which is a 50mm round gauge on the passenger side, it is a bit hard to see sometimes but the rest I live with.. :)

 

David

 

 

[kgwilson]

If anyone is interested this is my panel and control layout I designed for myself. The photo was taken during construction so there are no labels etc yet. On the left is the throttle, carb heat & electric flap switch. Left side of the panel is ASI top & tacho below, middle Dynon D6, then ALT top & VSI bottom. Centre bottom left is radio with the rest of the space for the ipadOz runways. Below that the switch cluster, ignition & power outlet for ipad etc & alternator charge light. On the floor mounted centre console is the choke below the ignition, then aux fuel switch with the Left / Right tank selector below. The main centre tank on/off selector is on the right at the top. The left side has the engine instruments angled towards the pilot with circuit breakers & warning label space above. The centre stick is under the blanket with the trim wheel behind.

 

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Fair point Yenn. I have just used a 3d printer to get a conversion from a big instrument to a small one ( without angling) , and you are probably right about not being able to retrofit a crowded panel but you must agree kg's panel looks good. And it is clearly readable from the RH seat.

 

 

[Yenn]

It does look good and no doubt safer than a non angled panel. It is the rules that are stupid, but if they could all be disregarded, then we would see all sorts of stupid modifications to LSA and the whole purpose of LSA would be usurped.

 

I have had the opposite problem when I did transition training in an RV7, flying from the right seat. I couldn't really see the glass panel on the other side, plus I wasn't conversant with glass panels. I got by.

 

 

[turboplanner]

It does look good and no doubt safer than a non angled panel. It is the rules that are stupid, but if they could all be disregarded, then we would see all sorts of stupid modifications to LSA and the whole purpose of LSA would be usurped.I have had the opposite problem when I did transition training in an RV7, flying from the right seat. I couldn't really see the glass panel on the other side, plus I wasn't conversant with glass panels. I got by.

There is some logic in all of this.

If you build your own aircraft, you might of might not hit on the optimum ergonomics, but most likely you are going to be the only person flying it, and the next buyer can probably get used to it.

 

However for factory built aircraft, which are more likely to be used for training, and hired by multiple pilots, commonality of location and performance is safer.

 

For example, the DIRD design rules for cars now ensure that the quirky ways to drive a car of old, which had to be learned every time you git into a different car are gone, replaced by design standards where you do much the same thing to achieve the same result regardless of the make or model of the car. The brake modulation is the same so these days you don't lock up the brakes on one car but slam into the car ahead in another, the gear shift patterns are standardised, throttle pressure standardised etc, even down to a little triangle printed on the fuel gauge, on whichever side the fuel filler is so you don't get distracted driving into a petrol station.

 

 

[kgwilson]

Not quite. European cars have the wipers/light switches on the right & indicators on the left. Japanese/Australian the other way round. Also our new SES Mercedes light truck has only 1 stalk on the left with everything on it except the lights which are a rotary switch on the dash to the right of the steering column.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Is there any history of people getting into trouble for trivial and pro-safety alterations?

 

While I can be quick to criticize CASA, deep down I don't really believe they are that bad.

 

Of course it is quite possible for a fool to think his modification is trivial when it is actually dangerous, so I understand why the regulation is there. But surely something properly done would not be prosecuted just because the letter of the law would seem to allow a prosecution to happen.

 

I would hope that a smart judge would regard the prosecution with incredulity, and I believe that most CASA types are above this anyway. Angling the instruments so the pilot can see them better is a good example of a pro-safety but trivial alteration.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Not quite. European cars have the wipers/light switches on the right & indicators on the left. Japanese/Australian the other way round. Also our new SES Mercedes light truck has only 1 stalk on the left with everything on it except the lights which are a rotary switch on the dash to the right of the steering column.

Yes, that's right; I was only thinking of the DIRD Australian Design Rule cars. I regularly screw up a couple of times when I drive a European or American car.

 

 

[Mick]

Is there any history of people getting into trouble for trivial and pro-safety alterations?While I can be quick to criticize CASA, deep down I don't really believe they are that bad.

Of course it is quite possible for a fool to think his modification is trivial when it is actually dangerous, so I understand why the regulation is there. But surely something properly done would not be prosecuted just because the letter of the law would seem to allow a prosecution to happen.

 

I would hope that a smart judge would regard the prosecution with incredulity, and I believe that most CASA types are above this anyway. Angling the instruments so the pilot can see them better is a good example of a pro-safety but trivial alteration.

I think the more likely scenario is if after an accident your LSA aircraft is found to have been modified without the factories approval it is deemed unregistered and at that point you will have no insurance.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Has that really happened Mick? How silly to pay them a premium if they would do that to you.

 

 

[zodiacpilot]

To quote CASA it is an offence of 'STRICT LIABILITY" unquote.

 

 

[Mick]

Has that really happened Mick? How silly to pay them a premium if they would do that to you.

Any insurance company will not pay out if they can find a way to justify it. It's not that hard to make sure you don't give them a reason.

 

These conditions on LSA are the trade off for not having the expense of full certification. Getting manufacturers authorization will vary greatly in degree of difficulty depending on the factory you have to deal with. I have recently gone through this process to be allowed to upgrade some components on my own LSA.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

By coincidence, there is an article on this subject in the latest mag. It sure is an area where we need more agreement such as negotiations between RAAus and CASA.

 

I am sure they would not want to argue against a trivial modification which clearly enhanced safety. In the mag, the example of modifying a seat to enable the rudder pedals to be reached was given . It was suggested that doing this would negate your right to fly the plane.

 

In my experience Mick you are right about insurance companies. The one statistic I would like to know is their payout percentage, that is the percentage of claims paid out without a fight. Of course they know this themselves.

 

 

[Snoopy]

So recently I became the proud owner of an Evektor Sportstar and I am loving it, with one exception. The instruments and gauges on the right side of the cockpit. The really should have been angled back toward the pilot to make them easier to read. To get any accuracy, you have to lean over to the Pax to see the instruments correctly.SO... does anyone have any ideas on how I can rectify this? Maybe retrofit some sort of angled bezels etc?

 

I am open to ideas.

 

Cheer

 

J

Flat panels are the most common and thousands of pilots use and put up with them. That's why flight instruments are on the left (pilot side) and engine instruments are right (copilot side). Pity the poor copilot trying to use the flight instruments. But if you want a very interesting option google CH 750 SD. The more conventional other option is two glass screens. They can be set up to show all flight and engine instruments on the each screen. Or flight on one screen and engine on the other as in conventional panels. With the option of switching them over to the opposite sides when the copilot is in command.

This link will take you to a sportstar photo with a glass panel

 

SportStar Photos, Harmony Airplane, Cobra, EV55 Outback, Evektor Australia

 

Hope this helps

 

 

[Geoff13]

Flat panels are the most common and thousands of pilots use and put up with them. That's why flight instruments are on the left (pilot side) and engine instruments are right (copilot side). Pity the poor copilot trying to use the flight instruments. But if you want a very interesting option google CH 750 SD. The more conventional other option is two glass screens. They can be set up to show all flight and engine instruments on the each screen. Or flight on one screen and engine on the other as in conventional panels. With the option of switching them over to the opposite sides when the copilot is in command.This link will take you to a sportstar photo with a glass panel

SportStar Photos, Harmony Airplane, Cobra, EV55 Outback, Evektor Australia

 

Hope this helps

You know what I love about this post.

 

You provide a link and then tell us where it will take us.

 

That gives us the opportunity to decide if we want to use up our data or not.

 

I hate seeing links with no information about what they are.

 

Well done that man.

 

 

[BirdDog]

Thanks all. A good discussion. I am still on the fence with "modifications" like this. If it's done by a LAME or someone with the approval, I don't see an issue - But I don't write the regulations.

 

I was out again yesterday and had a Pax. A mate who is a bit larger than me, and I made a note of what problems I faced when wanting accurate readings on the engine instruments, and I will stand by my claim that having to lean over in front of him in flight, surely can't be better than getting the instruments on an angle.

 

I REALLY hate the attitude of "LSA pilots have been using a flat dash for years" as an excuse to sit back and not look for a better way forward. Seriously... Are we that old and stubborn that we can't look at something and improve it.

 

Anyway.... I will put up with my dash the way it is, and fly and be happy, but I still think an angled dash would make for a nicer experience for me in the cockpit.

 

Just my 0.2.

 

 

[SSCBD]

Is this just a stupid rule, that shows CASA cant offer any solution in a timely fashion. What would the actual safety effect be against an angled instrument. Surely it would also reduce parallax error?

 

 

[BirdDog]

I am with you mate!! There as talk earlier about cabling being pulled etc etc. But like I said, if it's done by someone who knows what they are doing what is the issue?

 

I just had my entire exhaust ripped out of the bird for a full refurb! Why is that OK, but the same guy can't make it easier to see my engine instruments! LOL!

 

 

[BirdDog]

So... Let's reopen this topic once again....

 

So I can't angle the instruments - Cool. But can I relocate them? Ideally the RPM and MP is what I would like right in front of me, and in fact, Evektor made this very change not long after my bird was manufactured. The MP and RPM guages are in front of the pilot, along with Air Speed, Vert, etc etc.

 

Now that would make perfect sense.

 

 

[facthunter]

Philosophically the engine instruments should NOT be your highest priority. The standard orientation of the flight instruments are.. What is so critical about the engine? The MP is dependent on altitude and you soon learn (roughly) how much that drops of with (pressure) height .You don't have an inflight adjustable prop or a supercharger... Nev

 

 

[BirdDog]

I do have an in flight adjustable prop - That's my point!