DreamWorld and the importance of training records.

[winsor68]

This pretty much sums it all up.....The socialists seem to believe that there's a job for everyone and that were all equal, we just need some training. Statistically there is a percentage of the population that are not intelligent enough (and never will be) to carry out even basic tasks. All for equal opportunity, but forcing equality of outcome will not end well for anyone.

That's not Socialism...that is you being paranoid. Not saying it doesn't exist.. Just that both sides that mindset at different times.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...Statistically there is a percentage of the population that are not intelligent enough (and never will be) to carry out even basic tasks. All for equal opportunity, but forcing equality of outcome will not end well for anyone.

You're right M61, that our society subsidises some pretty unproductive people- right across the economic spectrum. Whilever we're stuck with top-down management, we will be saddled with overpaid and unqualified parasites who have climbed nearer the top of the pile, where their incredibly stupid decision- making can cause enormous losses to our nation.

As a teacher I've seen examples of deep insights and great skill in supposedly low-ability students. That those kids did not maximise their potential is more a comment on our defective education system than their ability.

 

Everyone can be good at something.

 

 

[M61A1]

You're right M61, that our society subsidises some pretty unproductive people- right across the economic spectrum. Whilever we're stuck with top-down management, we will be saddled with overpaid and unqualified parasites who have climbed nearer the top of the pile, where their incredibly stupid decision- making can cause enormous losses to our nation.As a teacher I've seen examples of deep insights and great skill in supposedly low-ability students. That those kids did not maximise their potential is more a comment on our defective education system than their ability.

 

Everyone can be good at something.

My comment was intended to question why we, as a country tend to lower the bar to allow the uncompetitive to compete. We make rules that affect everybody based on a very small percentage, and everyone suffers.

 

Forcing equality of outcome doesn't work, it just lowers the standard.

 

Yes, everyone can be good at something, but whether that something is useful or meaningful is debatable.

 

As for our education system, I suspect that has more to do with parenting than teachers. Education has had ever increasing funds and a steady downwards spiral of outcomes. But that's another discussion.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

My comment was intended to question why we, as a country tend to lower the bar to allow the uncompetitive to compete. We make rules that affect everybody based on a very small percentage, and everyone suffers.Forcing equality of outcome doesn't work, it just lowers the standard.

Yes, everyone can be good at something, but whether that something is useful or meaningful is debatable.

I can only assume it must be very lonely at the top

 

 

[turboplanner]

Especially when the whole Army is out of step FT.

 

 

[M61A1]

Especially when the whole Army is out of step FT.

No-one said anything about the whole army being out of step. When all of the people on the floor, and most managers think that the system is counterproductive, I would think it fair to say we have a problem. A part of that problem is that if you speak out there is a good chance you will have to suffer losing your job or worse, "retraining".

 

I can only assume it must be very lonely at the top

You've proved a point perfectly.....we have a genuine issue, but people would rather deny it's existence than have a useful discussion.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

humans are basically flawed, once you accept that everything falls into place.

 

There are also 2 sorts of people, those that produce and those that consume. The military is purely a consumer, I have worked with ex-military career people and they are definitely different to civilians.

 

 

[M61A1]

humans are basically flawed,.

No argument there, but it doesn't make anything fall into place.

I have no idea what your point is about consumers and producers because it has nothing to do with excessive legislation stifling productivity.

 

Even the military is a producer, they have to work within a regulatory framework to produce various results. Since the shift to civvy style OH&S regs, they have become even less productive, and even worse, the diversity crowd have got involved. I would suggest that in all walks of life, what you do should be based on your competency, not your gender, race or sexual orientation.

 

 

[old man emu]

[old man emu]

[fly_tornado]

I have no idea what your point is about consumers and producers because it has nothing to do with excessive legislation stifling productivity.

I think being surrounded by all those consumers most of your adult life warps your perspective. Productivity has never been higher in Australia, look how many trucks have rolled over on the Toowoomba bypass and not a single fatality.

 

 

[M61A1]

I want some of your drugs or whatever you're drinking

 

 

[fly_tornado]

121 died building the snowy river scheme but continue

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Society accepted the price for progress and employment in the past, it was injuries and deaths. Now we have changed priorities. People live, towns and industries die. We want both but it is a trade off.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

My comment was intended to question why we, as a country tend to lower the bar to allow the uncompetitive to compete...

You have a valid point, M61. The schools cirriculum competes for kids' attention with TV, movies, games and social media that values neither the work ethic nor school subject matter. Almost all kids will choose the easiest options. Too many think they'll become a sporting star; very few Aussie kids are prepared to do the hard yards to learn a foreign language (one reason to respect Kevin Rudd, who learned one of the hardest: Mandarin.)

 

...As for our education system, I suspect that has more to do with parenting than teachers. Education has had ever increasing funds and a steady downwards spiral of outcomes. But that's another discussion.

I fully agree. Too many parents expect schools to provide their kids' entire education, even though only a tiny % their time is actually spent in a classroom. Too few parents regularly read to their kids and actively take part in their development.

Increasing funds? We've seen ever-increasing workloads, so that teacher burnout is now at record levels. The average teacher spends less time in the profession than they spent training for it- and after they've given up, they still have years of HECS payments ahead of them.

 

 

[facthunter]

The seats fitted with switches is a good idea.. Monotonous repetition with complex safety requirements are bound to fail. You need "system" safeguards . Murphy's law "IF it CAN go wrong it will go wrong". It's just a matter of time with the human tendency to revert to "she'll be right. I've done this 100 times, and nothing's ever gone wrong"...Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

IF you are where the BUCK STOPS it can be lonely. That's a good reason for making sure you are up to it. and having the right person there. An employer has a lot of POWER over the employee. They sometimes cut corners to save money as they put in a quote that was too low to get the job in the first place and the worker gets injured or killed or the finished product is not of reliable quality. That situation must not be allowed to exist.. OR The person who abides by the RULES is penalized. If you must be unsafe to be in the business you shouldn't be allowed to operate in that field.. The users and customer s EXPECT surveillance and quality assurance. You can't have it both ways. Today people expect standards are there to rely on. You just need to be realistic. People who never leave the office aren't likely to be. Duck shoving responsibility isn't the answer either. . Nev

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

. It's just a matter of time with the human tendency to revert to "she'll be right. I've done this 100 times, and nothing's ever gone wrong"...Nev

In promoting this swimming race, they said they'e never lost one yet...

'We've never lost a swimmer': NT race through crocodile and jellyfish habitat

 

 

[fly_tornado]

that race is made for @M61A1

[facthunter]

Now, ft, that's not nice.. Abandon all brain effort and fit in well.. If you read too much into it you miss the point in the NT.. Cracker night 4th July with all the dry season fires likely. Go there. It's the last wild frontier. Years ago, I used to hire a small Catamaran and sail there (Fannie Bay.) I don't think I would do even that today.. Nev

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

So why do so many people start their sentences with “So”? It is a pandemic.

Well, there are probably a few reasons. They are indicating that they have thought about what you said and they still have some questions. It is like saying “How are you?” when you meet someone. You don’t want to know how they are, but you want them to know that you are thinking about them and willing to be sociable.

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

That is one of the reasons that it's ridiculously expensive to do business in this country. We have to employ so many non-productive people to cover the arxe of all levels of management. So many non-productive hours of safety meetings and toolbox talks. All so they can document their safety training.We have a ridiculous number of safety consultants and safety system managers, yet nothing has got any better. They just burden the workers with more process and paperwork in an environment where we are already drowning in documentation.

Yes we need safety, but there needs to be a balance. What we have and where we are going is nothing more than a parasitic industry sucking the life out of Australian business with little or no added benefit to anyone except those employed in the safety industry.

I agree that there needs to be a balance. If the safety process goes too far the other way, then there will be unnecessary injuries, which are very expensive. From time to time I see workers who have not come close to being killed, still look healthy, have some limitation caused by the injury and are no longer able to work in their usual job. In the short term, safety does make a business less efficient. James Reason, the original guru of safety systems, said that there is a pattern where businesses gradually get less safe and more efficient, have a serious accident, immediately become much safer, and then go back to being gradually more efficient. I wonder if something like that happened at Dreamworld. It opened in 1981. As far as I know, there were no deaths for 30 years. Then, bang! One accident and the whole business stops being viable. Amazing.

 

The safety stuff that you have described seems to outside the above model, with the safety people reducing efficiency without increasing safety. OME listed out the ISO 9001 requirements. The 9001 document is very short and can be summarised into one page, the quality cycle, as far as I can remember. The legislation, unified across Australia, is pretty simple, too: be as safe as practicable for the workers and customers. How to use a particular machine should be written in a manual. How to deal with particular situations like welders and fumes should also be well documented and in books. As far as I can tell, the stuff linking the top level (ISO, legislation) with the bottom level (machines and exposures) is where things get *really* complicated.

 

It should be that the people who try to increase safety, and the people who are frustrated by safety practices, should be able to meet in the middle. It would be really great if an external auditor would look at a business to see if their safety systems were making them inefficient; the high-ups businesses would love that information. Toolbox safety meetings are supposed to get information from the workers, at least as much as give information to them. The toolbox meetings should be an opportunity for workers to point out inefficiencies as well as point out dangers. The "safety officer" who was doing 100 kph in a 60 zone did not seem to be up to the job, to be frank. It is not a simple job. In the words of Rodney Rude, "You're supposed to ******* help, not make it ******* hard".

 

 

[turboplanner]

I agree that there needs to be a balance. If the safety process goes too far the other way, then there will be unnecessary injuries, which are very expensive. From time to time I see workers who have not come close to being killed, still look healthy, have some limitation caused by the injury and are no longer able to work in their usual job. In the short term, safety does make a business less efficient. James Reason, the original guru of safety systems, said that there is a pattern where businesses gradually get less safe and more efficient, have a serious accident, immediately become much safer, and then go back to being gradually more efficient. I wonder if something like that happened at Dreamworld. It opened in 1981. As far as I know, there were no deaths for 30 years. Then, bang! One accident and the whole business stops being viable. Amazing.The safety stuff that you have described seems to outside the above model, with the safety people reducing efficiency without increasing safety. OME listed out the ISO 9001 requirements. The 9001 document is very short and can be summarised into one page, the quality cycle, as far as I can remember. The legislation, unified across Australia, is pretty simple, too: be as safe as practicable for the workers and customers. How to use a particular machine should be written in a manual. How to deal with particular situations like welders and fumes should also be well documented. As far as I can tell, the stuff linking the top level (ISO, legislation) with the bottom level (machines and exposures) is where things get *really* complicated.

As of May this year there were over 12.5 million Australians employed in the workforce by thousands of companies.

 

The vast majority of those companies have developed economically viable systems that keep their employees safe; some will never get it.

 

Productivity is not doomed in Australia, we are moving up from a historical low of 58.2 Index Points in 1968 to 100.9 Index Points in the first quarter of 2018, with no downturn on the horizon.

 

The negative comments are coming from those involved in sunset industries, (where sadly we will see skills lost forever), people who just hate any authority and will ignore regulations because they thing they know better, and a few with "Old Man Syndrome".

 

There's certainly nothing wrong with an organisation calling in an external body to audit their systems, and weed out any inefficiencies, or missing safety links, but the point OME was trying to make applies to every company, and produces a common culture throughout the company.

 

If you take the Fanny Bay story, after the exciting headline, to goes on to explain some of the safety protocols in place, which mitigate the risk. If you were to lay those protocols down on paper, it would add up to a lot of words, but the point is, once you have it on paper, and if you log the training, there is n

 

 

[pmccarthy]

 

The mining industry serious claims rate has been falling for a long time, the safety systems seem to be working.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Hmmmm facts versus a deeply held conviction. That's a tough one all right.