Jaba-who Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Agreed. Fuel can leak or pumps can fail. Another Plus for Hi wing? Filler caps can come off and make the bladder tanks empty while still showing full.. There's no mechanic in the sky. It has to be right before you fly. Nev But most of those are not relevant in this case. It’s a jab - so high wing, it’s a wet wing model, the caps are clearly visible in place, they have fuel flow under gravity ( mine will run with the pumps inactive on the ground. Don’t know for sure but suspect it would run better in the air with the pressure effect of the vents) Oh and the PIC reported he ran out of fuel, ( well that is what is clearly stated earlier in this thread) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 With fuel starvation the motor tends not to stop dead like that. I would like to know where that report came from. Things about this don't sound right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 What I found with the J170 is that it was very difficult to get an accurate fuel volume. The gauges were not accurate enough for flight planning and there were no datum tabs, so I cut a piece of dowel for a dip. The wing tanks were separate from the skins and wing structure so height was small, while length was big. On the slightest slope one side would dip low and the other high. If you did a second dip in reverse you could work out how many liters gross were in there. The second problem was if you filled both tanks at night for an early morning flight, even on a slight slope one tank would drain significantly. It was manageable but if someone was new to these tanks he/she could be very easily be caught out on a cross country trip. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 What I found with the J170 is that it was very difficult to get an accurate fuel volume. The gauges were not accurate enough for flight planning and there were no datum tabs, so I cut a piece of dowel for a dip. The wing tanks were separate from the skins and wing structure so height was small, while length was big. On the slightest slope one side would dip low and the other high. If you did a second dip in reverse you could work out how many liters gross were in there. The second problem was if you filled both tanks at night for an early morning flight, even on a slight slope one tank would drain significantly. It was manageable but if someone was new to these tanks he/she could be very easily be caught out on a cross country trip. That would make an aircraft unsafe you have to be able to check how much fuel you have. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum1 Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 I heard he landed at Mundubbera and the motor stopped shortly after take off fuel starvation makes no sense to me. If he took off with almost empty tanks to go to Bundaberg then what the!! The Queensland Country Life report clearly states he crashed in the Auburn State Forest, which is about 10nm to the south-west of the town and before he would get to Mundubberra, coming from WA. From this crash location, it looks like he was trying to make Gayndah, about 28 nm to the East, where there is fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaba-who Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 That would make an aircraft unsafe you have to be able to check how much fuel you have. There is no requirement to dip the tanks. You have to be able to make a visual determination of the fuel available and if it’s a model with sight glass gauges then that fits the requirements. But even sight glasses don’t work in turbulence, flying uncoordinated etc. in anything but still air they slosh around and you can’t see it properly. when I built mine I actually installed epoxy plugs in the sight glass then drilled out a 1/64 hole to slow the sloshing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 That would make an aircraft unsafe you have to be able to check how much fuel you have. You can Richard; if you know whats there at the beginning and you know the fuel burn at climb and cruise (which is very consistent) you can caluculate your endurance minutes enroute. Sure you have fuel gauges, but even in GA they don't always read as accurately as fuel burn x minutes elapsed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 The Queensland Country Life report clearly states he crashed before Mundubberra in the Auburn State Forest, which is about 10nm to the south-west of the town. From this crash location, it looks like he was trying to make Gayndah, about 28 nm to the East, where there is fuel. That would change the whole thing. I guess relying on news reports is a waste of time. With so little known about the event speculating would also seem to be a waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 you would think by 2019 Jab would come up with a reliable fuel gauge. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaba-who Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 What I found with the J170 is that it was very difficult to get an accurate fuel volume. The gauges were not accurate enough for flight planning and there were no datum tabs, so I cut a piece of dowel for a dip. The wing tanks were separate from the skins and wing structure so height was small, while length was big. On the slightest slope one side would dip low and the other high. If you did a second dip in reverse you could work out how many liters gross were in there. The second problem was if you filled both tanks at night for an early morning flight, even on a slight slope one tank would drain significantly. It was manageable but if someone was new to these tanks he/she could be very easily be caught out on a cross country trip. The same inaccuracy exists for all jab models. I found when I used to dip the tanks the problem of long thin tanks with a small dihedral and the filler hole being out wide meant that the tanks dipped dry till they had some significant amount in them ( can’t recall what it was but about 25 litres seems to stick in mind). And then if you put any weight/pressure on the wing you could change the dip significantly. If it was anything other than dead level you got significant difference between wings. Attempts to turn it and measure again don’t work. And if you move the aircraft at all there is no certainty it will “settle” at the same inclination when you stop. Even giving the wing a rock it often settles out completely differently. In the end I gave up dipping and use the sight glass. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 you would think by 2019 Jab would come up with a reliable fuel gauge. FT, those of us who design and build things know that there are challenges every morning; it took me three months to finally solve a puzzle which enabled me to design a B Double once. The fuel gauges themselves are probably accurate, but the application is to fit a fuel tank into a very slim wing, which I certainly prefer to the LSA55 behind the seats, but the height is so limited that there is continual wash and the readings change whenever you bank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Virtually NO fuel gauges are really accurate. With sight gauges at least you can rock your wings (unbalanced so it changes) and watch what the level does. this is only when you are getting desperate. The only time you actually know with certainty, what you have is when it's completely FULL or empty to unusable and fully empty when drained completely. IF you THEN add or remove a known quantity accurately that is considered a satisfactory method of determining fuel quantity You always use two different methods as a double check and really GAUGES don't count on their own, even in a commercial Jet. Nev 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaba-who Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 With fuel starvation the motor tends not to stop dead like that. I would like to know where that report came from. Things about this don't sound right. That’s not completely correct. Most times -yes. I have been in an aircraft where we were doing phase 1 testing and did an inadvertent test to see how long it could last on Just the header tank. During run ups etc got distracted by ATC and missed the “Fuel taps -all ON” At 21 minutes it gave a few short sharp splutters that lasted over a period of a minute it so. Took me that long to realize what I’d done. ( or rather not done) On another cross country flight - not my aircraft. I was pax and the PIC was a one tank On one tank off guy and he forgot. I’m a “leave em all in all the time” guy so I didn’t even think about it. Anyway wevwere bootling along and it stopped dead with no warning. Fortunately we were at high cruising height and had heaps of time to trouble shoot and fixed it before we’d lost 500 ft. So i’d agree with you that splutters are the norm but not always. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaba-who Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 you would think by 2019 Jab would come up with a reliable fuel gauge. No aircraft have reliable fuel gauges - that’s why pilots should have type specific training in fuel management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaba-who Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 you would think by 2019 Jab would come up with a reliable fuel gauge. No aircraft have reliable fuel gauges - that’s why pilots should have type specific training in fuel management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaba-who Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 It’s confirmed - Aircraft ran out of fuel. Jabiru have just put a post on their Facebook page ( I tried to cut and paste but doesn’t want to work. ) aircraft had had insufficient fuel for the flight. They have the aircraft wreck at Jabiru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 It’s confirmed - Aircraft ran out of fuel. Jabiru have just put a post on their Facebook page ( I tried to cut and paste but doesn’t want to work. ) aircraft had had insufficient fuel for the flight. They have the aircraft wreck at Jabiru. All good for Jabiru, failure not the fault of the engine and pilot friendly airframe. Don't know why I thought I could believe the media. Silly in hindsight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggles Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 “ Jabiru can advise that we have recovered the aircraft from the Mundubbera forest that was involved in Tuesday's accident. We can now confirm that there was insufficient fuel for flight on board. You can see by the photo below how intact the cabin remained around the pilot, which is testimony to the crash worthy design features of the Jabiru.” The pilot walked away with only minor scratches. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
440032 Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-10/kimberley-man-survives-plane-crash-1/10703658 Those scratches will buff right out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggles Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 ....... and quite clearly a J 230 ...... Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Jabirus have retrived fuse and have pictures, cockpit amazingly intact and pilot has only scrtches they indicate pilot confirmed inadequate fuel for flight see their facebook page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueadventures Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 “ Jabiru can advise that we have recovered the aircraft from the Mundubbera forest that was involved in Tuesday's accident. We can now confirm that there was insufficient fuel for flight on board. You can see by the photo below how intact the cabin remained around the pilot, which is testimony to the crash worthy design features of the Jabiru.” The pilot walked away with only minor scratches. Great to hear the Pilot survived; and terrific that almost no injury. Shame to loose an aircraft. Once again the aircraft's performance in this type of situation is proven to be excellent. Hopefully the pilot does a self assessment of what lead up to this event and shares it with us. With luck an official comment will be written so we can learn. On face value it looks an educational topic similar to those that we have read over the years. Also look forward to hearing the pilot is back in the air flying again. Cheers 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggles Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Flying Baptist minister Paul White thanks God for plane crash survival Geof Parry7News Perth January 10, 2019 8:50PM TOPICS WA NewsRegional WAAviationKimberleyReligion and BeliefDisaster and Emergency A WA bush chaplain is thanking God for his miracle survival after an outback plane crash. The Baptist minister and pilot crash landed in rough country in Queensland. His plane was destroyed but he walked away. Derby pilot Paul White has God on his side. Which is just as well because when his plane crashed in Queensland on Monday he needed all the help he could get. “I think the Lord used a dozen angels up on me yesterday and I’m just very thankful to be alive,” said Pastor White who has lived and spread the gospel in the Kimberley for much of his life. Earlier this week he was flying across the Queensland outback in his Australian made Jabiru two-seater aircraft. “When the fan stops at the front you know something has gone wrong and that’s when a pilot starts to sweat,” he said. With thousands of hours of flying experience Pastor White knew what he had to do. The ground was heavily wooded and finding somewhere to land was not going to be easy. “I weaved between the trees as much as I could,” he said. “There was a big tree (that) took one wing out. The plane spun around did a catapult over and it stopped.” The crew from a rescue chopper were expecting the worst when they arrived overhead and winched a crewman down to the wreck. But Pastor White, a grandfather to 10, survived with just some cuts and bruises and is recuperating before heading home for a reunion with his wife. The call to her after the crash the hardest moment. “There was one bar on the phone working and I made that horrible call to my wife. That’s the difficult time once you land,” he said. Pastor White plans to return to Derby and continue flying with Kingdom Air, the flying ministry he runs to provide pastoral services to remote Aboriginal communities. “Being a man of faith and loving the Lord and a Baptist minister and full-time chaplain I naturally give all the credit to God I look at that plane and I shouldn’t be alive,” he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf jessup Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 His imaginary friend had jack to do with his survival, his skills taught had a lot to do with it as well as the aircraft design. His running out of fuel is very poor airmanship, thinking I might make it is not a smart way to fly knowing you are eating in to your reserves. Glad he survived it and will no doubt never run out of fuel again. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horsefeathers Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Maybe the minister thought he could keep running on 'spirits' 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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