Is RAA getting 760kg MTOW?

[coljones]

15 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Turbs, the aim of a company is to make money for it's shareholders. Anything else is secondary.

 

The aim of companies is to act in the interest of members. "Not for Profit" companies, like RAAus, RAC -Qld and the AMA can't distribute profits to the owners, the members, so in the long run sell cheap beer, build Taj Mahals, charge low fees or some other means to avoid making a surplus of cash.

[turboplanner]

6 hours ago, coljones said:

RAAus, the company, is an "association" owned by the members, generally the financial pilot certificate holders, just like most other associations, including registered clubs and aero clubs.

No, it's not an "association", it operates autonomously. This misunderstanding is at the centre of the current position which Kasper described.

 

I haven't checked to see if the 2010 CASA instructions have been enacted yet, but I would be suprised if they had. I haven't seen any evidence of day to day management structure, in which case that may not have been enacted, which is probably why some people are saying on here that it works for them.

 

It would be interesting to find out why those board members left so fast.

[Kenlsa]

We keep revisiting this RAOz :company, business, association, limited by,  club, AUF, better in the old days, my opinion doesn’t count, castles, no longer for members etc etc etc. and of course Jabirus are crap 🙂

 

 I was a  member in the AUF days, saw and voted for development of RAOz and the absolute stuff up with records and systems that stopped us flying.

 

I voted for the new RAOz that has got us on the table with the grownups.

 

I complete every survey, write letters to the editor, talk by email and phone to the tech and ops staff. I attend every info session when they come to visit our club.

 

 I am involved.
 

I own, fly and continue to build planes.

 

 I have to say that I am more than satisfied with the state of affairs at the moment.

 

Sure, most of the members (and just how many of you are actually  members anyway and not disgruntled ex wannabes) did not vote for the last change (as they were  lazy, didn’t care or were happy to be led)? Sometimes I wonder how many of you actually fly.

Only those who really cared voted and the new system was supported by those who had skin in the game—owners and potential owners.

 

If you don’t like flying under RAOz……..start another association.  Oh that’s right, it seems to have crashed and burned. Or you can move over and fly VH and then see how much influence you have on your recreational flying.

This is the organisation we have at the moment and we are moving forward under their hand, both paid and volunteer. And to those of you who intimate corruption by the executive and staff, as has crept into these forum discussions …..PUorSU. 

Ken

[jackc]

Well, when I make a safety enquiry and I am told ‘We don’t care IF you stick your plane together with blue tak’.  

And while I am at it,  a ‘Condition Report’ is almost worthless as far as airworthiness is concerned.  

I am sorry but there are probably a few other deficiencies too, but like everything…..all it takes is a few good people to sit on their hands and do NOTHING.   How could you blame my attitude to all this, if they don’t care why should I?

[jackc]

While I am at it, last election I tried to phone candidates, left messages and got nowhere. I did not know any of them from a bar of soap as I live in an aviation ‘wasteland’ How could I vote…….no interest on there part, so no interest on my part?

[spacesailor]

" Not all members or Flyers "

Over a dozen were were grounded for Bureaucratic reasons. 

I wonder how many still pay ;Raa dues. 

I DON,T

now were do I find those None members, so l can fly with them, and '  soar like an eagle ' .

I did try to join that NEW old A U F .

spacesailor

 

[jackc]

Easy, just start a  NEW AUF 🙂  However be aware you will be flying unlicensed in stealth mode and organising clandestine flights under the radar.

Organisation via encrypted email service, NO Youtube publication of operation lest the ‘snitches’ get you.  Remote airstrip flyins to strips where there is no mobile phone coverage?

Sounds almost like ‘underground aviation’.  flying fun at its best 🙂 

I will await the arrival of ‘RAA Black Force’ for my unlawful arrest 🙂  🙂 

[spacesailor]

We already know some of the old school Are flying illegally. 

I only want to join them,

Simple word of mouth.

To fly on " your own property " , is legal. According to Raa, 

But

I could be outdated !.

When not in the system   that same system Can catch you out by changing Their rules.

spacesailor

[jackc]

5 hours ago, spacesailor said:

We already know some of the old school Are flying illegally. 

I only want to join them,

Simple word of mouth.

To fly on " your own property " , is legal. According to Raa, 

But

I could be outdated !.

When not in the system   that same system Can catch you out by changing Their rules.

spacesailor

I have always agonised that Australia has no  FAA FAR Part 103 regime,  thinking that it could boost a ‘Foundation Aviation’ following and  be a future start for some people interested in Aviation.  Seeing RAAus Flying Schools now charging upwards of $300 per hour plus surcharges is starting to be unaffordable.for many.

I would not blame people if they imported one of Dennis Carley’s Aerolyte 103 RTF kits and just did final assembly and flew under the radar,

People say you need full flight instruction bla bla.  Just do a few hours RAA, and heaps of Youtube videos and study flight principles and you’re away!

 IF I knew at the start what grief I was in for in following the the RAA or GA thing, I would have gone under the radar and done my Part 103 thing.  Yeah I know this post will find its way to CASA and RAA,  but I openly state my opinion at any time and if the pussies  don’t like  it. Then go listen to Bon Jovi’s song “It’s My Life” 

That, is how I run my life 🙂 

[turboplanner]

7 minutes ago, jackc said:

I have always agonised that Australia has no  FAA FAR Part 103 regime,  thinking that it could boost a ‘Foundation Aviation’ following and  be a future start for some people interested in Aviation.  Seeing RAAus Flying Schools now charging upwards of $300 per hour plus surcharges is starting to be unaffordable.for many.

I would not blame people if they imported one of Dennis Carley’s Aerolyte 103 RTF kits and just did final assembly and flew under the radar,

People say you need full flight instruction bla bla.  Just do a few hours RAA, and heaps of Youtube videos and study flight principles and you’re away!

 IF I knew at the start what grief I was in for in following the the RAA or GA thing, I would have gone under the radar and done my Part 103 thing.  Yeah I know this post will find its way to CASA and RAA,  but I openly state my opinion at any time and if the pussies  don’t like  it. Then go listen to Bon Jovi’s song “It’s My Life” 

That, is how I run my life 🙂 

Let's not be irresponsible. No one wants people who can't comply with regulations and can't follow safety rules. Australia has an excellent way of handling these people; they fund their own defence when people sue them, and in cases where they know that what they are doing is wrong they open themselves up to criminal charges for their culpable actions. In the prescriptive era CASA probably would have come knocking on someone's door, but in the self administration era when an individual makes statements about going rogue and flying unlicensed no one is impressed and no one cares because the lawsuits are person to person.

[jackc]

2 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Let's not be irresponsible. No one wants people who can't comply with regulations and can't follow safety rules. Australia has an excellent way of handling these people; they fund their own defence when people sue them, and in cases where they know that what they are doing is wrong they open themselves up to criminal charges for their culpable actions. In the prescriptive era CASA probably would have come knocking on someone's door, but in the self administration era when an individual makes statements about going rogue and flying unlicensed no one is impressed and no one cares because the lawsuits are person to person.

Turbo, I know the consequences of everything I have undertaken in my life and never had a problem.  Even IF I built my own aircraft, just like the Wright Brothers did and flew where there are no people in a rural area.  Who can sue my dead body   IF I inadvertently crashed into a mountain somewhere. What regulator is going to summons my dead body to court? Well let me tell you something…….many people I have told of my rogue ideas, love them 🙂  I even been asked how they can be in on the scheme 🙂.  Why? Because they are sick of this World full of whinging, snitching, do gooder pussies of this World who live very sad lives and have no idea of adventure. I am lucky that I have 2 planes and don’t have to go ‘rogue’ but I will say it’s more than once crossed my mind to get an Aerolyte 103 electric kit and fly so I can say ‘I did it my way’ 🙂  

And……I don’t give a FF what anyone thinks, I am 70 years old and stuck on my 21st birthday, while other unhappy Dinosaurs sit in front of their stupid TV set waiting to die 🙂 

 

 

[jackc]

Good old Part 103 now has a helicopter 🙂

 

https://bydanjohnson.com/coaxial-helicopter-that-meets-part-103-and-you-can-afford-it/

[jackc]

FAR Part 103 40 Year Anniversary

 

https://www.eaa.org/airventure/eaa-airventure-news-and-multimedia/eaa-airventure-news/eaa-airventure-oshkosh/2022-06-02-ultralight-40th-anniversary-at-airventure-22?utm_source=enewsletter_ehotline_060222&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=airventure_2022&utm_content=eh_avnews&mkt_tok=OTEwLVNFVS0wNzMAAAGExU3_tlccVNsCXjKvtDTrZ0OlZLzpKVJsvB3yeYOQ_fZOmcwQuhuiduyoiRLV_kkmcTlJqkx141HF0Ge28eKCfkKbF4tcw-MwKYghDQDsZnZVzg 

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I like your ideas jackc, but alas turbs is more mainstream than we are.  The common judge would likely have a secret fear of flying etc.

I wonder about the legality ( or otherwise) of operating below 500 ft on a freehold farm. It is my understanding that the AUF started off like this because they could not be stopped. And, as you say, who cares what happens after you have died?

Now if you strayed,  for example above 500 feet, I for one would never tell.

 

[turboplanner]

3 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

I like your ideas jackc, but alas turbs is more mainstream than we are.  The common judge would likely have a secret fear of flying etc.

I wonder about the legality ( or otherwise) of operating below 500 ft on a freehold farm. It is my understanding that the AUF started off like this because they could not be stopped. And, as you say, who cares what happens after you have died?

Now if you strayed,  for example above 500 feet, I for one would never tell.

 

Since I've been dragged in, I'll make some comments.

1. Why not start a new thread called helicopters instead of confusing the issues in this one, which is about a public consultation on weight which concluded several years ago.

 

2. Historically when the bottom end of aviation in Australia was doing effectively what VH Experimental does now, and from my memory Bill Moyes was the first to hang from a kite behind a speedboat, hang gliders were approved under certain conditions. People could see the possibilities of putting engines under them (trikes) or making them look and behave something like aircraft. CASA approved operations but only on private properties away from airports and not above 300 feet. So VH operations were separated by 200 feet. Given that the lowest 500 feet is usually the most dangerous, this never made much sense to me, and it wasn't long before this group were given new freedoms, most of which have survived to this day. It had nothing to do with them not being able to be stopped, and a lot to do with some people who were brilliant aviation designers, builders and administrators.

 

3. The user pays, self administration public liability system we use in Australia has had plenty of traffic on this site, and no one can try and pull the con that they don't know what their responsibilities are. Even if you are flying under 500 feet on your own private property, no one really has to care these days because if you injuer or kill your passenger through not adhering to a guideline, they or their estate will probably sue you and take your house if you run out of insurance. If you kill yourself and someone else is injured they just sue your estate. and there are plenty of examples of wives suing their husband's estate. As I've mentioned before, spending an hour with a Public Liability law firm would cost roughly the same as an hour's flying instruction and is a very good investment, because it's so easy to get yourself into compliance and properly insured.

[Flightrite]

That heli contraption has $$$$ written all over it😂

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

My understanding was that the property below 300 ft belonged to the landowner. ( I thought it was 500 ft, but the 3 hundred feet is probably right in Australia. The biggest trees grow this high, and you don't need permission from CASA to plant a tree on your own farm. )

Anyway, while you are clearly correct turbs about the resulting events from killing or injuring a passenger, that was not in my thinking at all. If you can operate without such events, and you will only endanger yourself ( if then ) , then I stand by my assertion that this operation is fine by me.

Thanks for the idea of actually learning from real lawyers, that sure would be better than a classroom. Personally, I found that going to traffic court was a great learning experience. I found that 90% of speeding-fine people were going to a funeral at the time, and were so distraught that they forgot to monitor their speed. This had exactly zero effect on the beak, who clearly had heard it too many times.

[jackc]

Simple solution here, ask Admin to create sub group in the forum and call it ‘Wing and a prayer Flintstone Flyers’ ?  Then we don’t clog up the forums with our fun ideas 🙂 

 

[jackc]

47 minutes ago, Flightrite said:

That heli contraption has $$$$ written all over it😂

 

$40 grand of fun, flying night VFR on a full Moon, what’s not to like 🙂 

[jackc]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

Since I've been dragged in, I'll make some comments.

1. Why not start a new thread called helicopters instead of confusing the issues in this one, which is about a public consultation on weight which concluded several years ago.

Cut

OK for people in high density areas, in the bush it’s teach yourself everything 

See my suggestion for a sub forum, don’t want to raise your stress levels Turbs:-) 

[turboplanner]

35 minutes ago, jackc said:

OK for people in high density areas, in the bush it’s teach yourself everything 

See my suggestion for a sub forum, don’t want to raise your stress levels Turbs:-) 

Just create a Forum subject for Helicopters. We already have one for Public Liability.

[jackc]

Make one for Helios and another for disenfranchised so called “sick bird” flyers :-)

[onetrack]

Those tiny choppers are an extremely risky method of getting airborne. Choppers are extremely sensitive to control inputs at the best of times. The tiny choppers don't carry enough mass to be stable in every adverse situation encountered. The Mosquito helicopter has a pretty abysmal crash record.

 

But the biggest factor in the risk involved in flying these "bare bones" machines (designs without any cabin) is the lack of a visual reference to the horizon, thanks to a lack of forward-mounted structure. During testing, this feature was found to cause spatial disorientation once out of ground effect, resulting in crashes.

 

There's some interesting reading below, as regards the Oct 1965 testing of the Hiller YROE-1 Rotorcycle, which had a GTOW of 562lbs (255kgs). The "summary of the pertinent parameters determined" is quite revealing. Despite the U.S. military claiming the Rotorcycle was extremely stable and only took 8 hrs to master, the NASA test results do not support the U.S. military claims. Of course, the military are rarely overly concerned about regular aviation losses.

 

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19650025802/downloads/19650025802.pdf

 

https://www.si.edu/object/hiller-yroe-1-rotorcycle%3Anasm_A19610202000

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, jackc said:

Make one for Helios and another for disenfranchised so called “sick bird” flyers 🙂

Nothing to stop you doing that.

[jackc]

1 hour ago, onetrack said:

Those tiny choppers are an extremely risky method of getting airborne. Choppers are extremely sensitive to control inputs at the best of times. The tiny choppers don't carry enough mass to be stable in every adverse situation encountered. The Mosquito helicopter has a pretty abysmal crash record.

 

But the biggest factor in the risk involved in flying these "bare bones" machines (designs without any cabin) is the lack of a visual reference to the horizon, thanks to a lack of forward-mounted structure. During testing, this feature was found to cause spatial disorientation once out of ground effect, resulting in crashes.

 

There's some interesting reading below, as regards the Oct 1965 testing of the Hiller YROE-1 Rotorcycle, which had a GTOW of 562lbs (255kgs). The "summary of the pertinent parameters determined" is quite revealing. Despite the U.S. military claiming the Rotorcycle was extremely stable and only took 8 hrs to master, the NASA test results do not support the U.S. military claims. Of course, the military are rarely overly concerned about regular aviation losses.

 

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19650025802/downloads/19650025802.pdf

 

https://www.si.edu/object/hiller-yroe-1-rotorcycle%3Anasm_A19610202000

EVERYTHING in this life has elements of risk, the idea being to minimise them where possible.

IF nobody ever took risks, this Earth would not have got as far as it has. 

I take all advice onboard  THEN work out if the risks are too high for injury/death to myself or any other human beings.  

If you only knew of the highly illegal things I have done in my life to prove ideas etc, you would be horrified, but alas no one has died or myself as a result of all this fun 🙂