Uncontrolled airports. Which call to make in circuits if you’re only going to make one call?

[F10]

Then there's the crafty "established on a 3 mile final" call, despite other circuit traffic......I got this one when on late downwind for Latrobe...Final traffic is supposed to have right of way, 3 miles out is that in the circuit? Do I continue and turn base at my normal position? (I fly fairly tight circuits in the Gazelle, don't get me started on the 747 size circuit artists...), By rights I could.....But it's n ot that simple. Because the following questions popped into my head. How fast will he be on final? Will he catch me up? Will he see me below his nose in final?.....*So I chose the safer for me, option, and extended downwind till I had him sighted and turned final number 2 to him. As well as letting him know by callsign, that I had him sighted and was planning to go number 2 to him which he at least acknowledged. But to me he had pretty much barged into the circuit by joining on final. If there's other circuit traffic and actually, even when there's not, I almost always join overhead. It gives me time to have a good look at the wind/runway direction, and time to develop my SA of the circuit traffic.  

[skippydiesel]

Hi F10,

 

I'm with you on overflying, before descending to join the circuit - lots of pluses cant think of a serious negative.

 

Again like you, I get concerned with straight in approaches, for all the reasons you mentioned. In my limited experince this is typical of commuter (RPT) aircraft - fast & big! Best to keep out of their way. 

 

Its some time since I had a RPT call to say they were on (very) long final, when I was established in the circuit,- I decided I would like to "orbite" at some distance, convenient to rejoining the circuit, with a good view of the approaching RPT (I communicated this to the CP & was thanked for my consideration). I rejoined the circuit, when I assessed I could make my landing, after he had left the active runway - all good!.

Edited October 18, 2024 by skippydiesel

[kgwilson]

I have only approached other pilots on the ground when I heard nothing from them to find out why they didn't make a radio call. In 2 incidents their radios were not transmitting but they thought they were and in one it was not transmitting or receiving. The discussion was useful for all 3 as they agreed to get their radios checked, well that's what they said anyway.

[robinsm]

Make all the calls.   If they know where you are then it makes it safer for you and them.    I had a couple of close calls because trainees from city based schools did not make calls and I only avoided a collision because I was lucky enough to see them.   Safety first, make all calls even if some consider it excessive.  

[pmccarthy]

I have twice simulated radio failure in an unfamiliar aircraft by plugging my headset into the passenger socket.

[Mike Gearon]

21 hours ago, facthunter said:

XYZ "Say again" or "Confirm so and so" is OK.  

Recently…..Taking a friend sightseeing so a departure straight out to Phillip Island. Tried not to be distracted but I didn’t call altitude on departure call. Noted it on sign off but didn’t update the call.  Glad I had ADSB in. I  could see an aircraft that was going to track north directly over the top of me. That aircraft was 2500ft and had been my intended altitude. I think we’d have very nicely met up at 2500ft without ADSB in and out. 
 

I called with altitude at that point and kept it low as they passed directly overhead heading north. Also, while this was going on Tyabb had 17 and 35 circuit calls same time and the corresponding flurry of calls to sort that out.

 

My friend was very interested in taking up flying. That is right up until the combination of aircraft over the top of us and 2 circuit aircraft aimed at each other all happening at once seemed to put him right off! I assured him nothing like that had ever happened before and not to worry about it. 
 

The concurrent situations were both primarily related to radio calls and corresponding actions. ADSB was a good backup.
 

Calls to “confirm so and so” as Facthunter mentions weren’t in my playbook. Say again certainly was. I’ll use “confirm” where appropriate in future and juggle that with not jamming up radio with unnecessary calls. As the story above shows it’s unusual but not I’mpossible to have a number of potential conflicts happen at once. My friend stayed 3 days and situation was second day. Had him light on controls behind me last day of flight including turns, ascents and descents while turning  etc and interest returned….I  think. 
 

 

 

 

[facthunter]

SAY again is pretty standard. Confirm is pretty clear. REPEAT after (word) also. Vertical separation is the most RELIABLE till visual passing is assured and confirmed. Your Passenger was aware of the dangers with justification.. You can't expect an unending supply of luck. Nev

[kgwilson]

Original radio pro words from the old FRTO licence seem to have evolved somewhat. "Roger" has been replaced with "Copy", "Say Again" with "Repeat" etc with some pilots. Even contacting ATC seems to have relaxed its formality other than ensuring you read back correctly. So long as the message is clear and unambiguous it doesn't matter so long as you know the other party has received & understood the message & vice versa.

 

I am a bit of a traditionalist & always use Say Again (your last message) or (all after......). With all of the foreign students we have around here a lot of the calls are almost impossible to understand. Sometimes the instructor would respond but now the instructor is also foreign with English as their second language and some accents are pretty heavy. My other pet hate is smart arses who use machine gun calls. I never get all of the message when this happens.

[turboplanner]

On 14/10/2024 at 2:30 PM, F10 said:

I agree in this case, fully with Dan Gryder when he says force the other aircraft to talk to you...I was joining overhead at Latrobe one fine day, and after each call I heard an aircraft call, which sounded like he was in line astern formation with me....despite trying to twist around I could not see him. He of course gave no indication that he had seen me. I then asked directly, "(Callsign)...Have you got me visual?" Even when not an issue, I will often address an aircraft directly, forcing a reply or at least a double Tx click. My pet peeve, is people who make position reports blindly, giving no indication they have noted the other traffic, even when a conflict could exist. My other PET HATE.....is people who machine gun their radio calls at 3000 words a second. Do people think they sound uber cool if they rapid fire transmissions?

You’re probably listening to someone who flies out of a city airport (8 to 12 in the circuit) and sticks to the formal phrases. There aren’t all that many phrases, so these people can usually pick up a transmission by the syllables if the radio is on the way out. This is why inventing your own phrases and locations are not a good idea if you ever come to the bigger airport. Yes they can and should slow down when they get out to quiet country circuits.

[Red]

Correct term is  Affirmative usually shortened to "Affirm", "Confirm" as Facthinter uses is non standard

[Garfly]

2 hours ago, Red said:

Correct term is  Affirmative usually shortened to "Affirm", "Confirm" as Facthinter uses is non standard

 

I believe that  "Affirmative" is never correct (due to its sound being too close to "Negative").

 

And whereas "Affirm" is only ever used as an answer, "Confirm" is only ever part of a question.

[Bosi72]

It is worth reading first 3 pages of Phraseologies in AIP GEN 3.4-25, and refreshing knowledge on radio calls.

Not only first 3 pages, but other 70 with various scenarios.

 

For those who don't know, AIP can be downloaded for free on 

https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/aip.asp

 

or it also comes as part of EFB.

Edited October 19, 2024 by Bosi72

[facthunter]

I explained "Confirm" always relates to some thing, like Confirm LEFT turn onto HDG 320 when it's the long way around. ..   Or confirm "clear to take off." or land if you have any doubt.  Nev

[Mike Gearon]

Well, it’s over a year since I brought the subject up. I couldn’t be more sure after this time of what should be going on.

 

1. Agreed on minimal calls. Dangerous to plug up the CTAF with 3 calls.

 

2. I’m very sure now (was somewhat unsure at times before….) There should be a mandated downwind call. There should be advisory of making final call if an aircraft is at the departure end or nearby taxiing.

 

Mandating a call gives certainty to instructors, students and general aviation pilots that no matter where they visit they will always expect the same call to be made.

 

Base is the useless call. It doesn’t help aircraft joining cross, downwind or base.

 

Base doesn’t help aircraft that are at departure waiting to take off. Final does.

 

When I’m in USA and suitably bored I’ll write a letter to casa for somebody to file away and ignore.

[Student Pilot]

I call inbound (usually 10 mile, 160kts) then joining the circuit crosswind/downwind/base or straight in whichever leg suits depending on active runway and direction inbound. If there's traffic then slot in or modify the circuit joining to fit with other traffic.

[Roundsounds]

3 hours ago, Mike Gearon said:

Well, it’s over a year since I brought the subject up. I couldn’t be more sure after this time of what should be going on.

 

1. Agreed on minimal calls. Dangerous to plug up the CTAF with 3 calls.

 

2. I’m very sure now (was somewhat unsure at times before….) There should be a mandated downwind call. There should be advisory of making final call if an aircraft is at the departure end or nearby taxiing.

 

Mandating a call gives certainty to instructors, students and general aviation pilots that no matter where they visit they will always expect the same call to be made.

 

Base is the useless call. It doesn’t help aircraft joining cross, downwind or base.

 

Base doesn’t help aircraft that are at departure waiting to take off. Final does.

 

When I’m in USA and suitably bored I’ll write a letter to casa for somebody to file away and ignore.

A downwind call suits ATC at Class D airports (formerly GAAP) for sequencing. A base call is way more useful at Class G airports. 

[Mike Gearon]

I’ve made up a diagram to make it simple. And…. I’m going to make contact with CASA to discuss. If anyone has a good contact within CASA I’d appreciate a PM

 

Note… if I’m conducting circuits at an airport with a particular call such as base only I’ll just call my base because that is what is expected. I’ll call downwind if incoming aircraft. I’ll call final if I have a suspicion the taxiing aircraft that’s at runway departure might want to sneak out. I’ll call final if I’ve joined behind another aircraft that might be worried I’m too close so they can relax and concentrate on their landing. Rare occasions and subject to the number of calls I’m hearing in circuit.

 

But…. If CASA had a recommended downwind call as single call it would make everyone’s life easier. Schools would become consistent. Calls around Australia would be more predictable when coming in to an unknown airfield. I started this thread with a degree of uncertainty due to my limited flying experience and some difficult encounters with a few indivividuals….. well… one individual.

 

I’m now very certain. Some 750 hours flying in 2 countries and 7 years. The current radio call procedures are at some point going to cause some of us so,e really near misses or worse.

 

 

[aro]

I disagree.

 

Downwind calls are useful for anyone joining the circuit on downwind or crosswind. For everyone else, base calls are better.

 

The point of maximum conflict is at the threshold of the runway. Downwind calls are too early with too much variation in time to the threshold to figure out whether there is a conflict.

 

They're useless for someone on a straight in because at that point they're trying to see an aircraft front-on at a distance of 5-8 miles.

 

A base call (with intentions) is much easier to figure out if a conflict exists, and there is plenty of time to resolve it.

A base call allows a following aircraft to adjust their spacing if you're doing a full-stop.

A base call allows a departing aircraft to judge if they have time to take off.

A base call allows you to figure out how many aircraft are ahead of you, without the likelihood that other aircraft will join the circuit in front of the aircraft that just called.

A base call allows an aircraft on a straight in to judge whether a conflict really exists (if they are short final probably not, if they are a 2-3 miles out there will probably be a conflict and they need to take action).

[robinsm]

just give 3 calls...downwind, base, and final gives everyone your location.   Much safer.   After va few close calls when only one call given, I always use 3.  You cant wear your radio out and 3 calls can save your a...s

 

 

[facthunter]

The best place to ADJUST is on  downwind BEFORE turning  base (Track distance) but don't overdo it.  Straight in will reduce time in the circuit.  Always have an exit plan for a go around . Know the runway in use. Keep your transmissions short and clear. Nev

[aro]

46 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Straight in will reduce time in the circuit.

Time in the circuit is time to build a picture of other traffic.

Too many people aren't comfortable in the circuit, so they do a straight in and hope that everyone will hear their calls and get out of the way. If you're a faster aircraft and can't fit into the existing circuit fair enough, but if you could easily join the existing e.g. 1000' circuit and there are multiple aircraft already in the circuit, a straight-in is a bit rude. 

 

50 minutes ago, facthunter said:

The best place to ADJUST is on  downwind BEFORE turning  base

Yes, you are faster on downwind than final so a 5 second delay turning base probably gives you something like 15 seconds or 1/4 mile difference at the threshold.

[aro]

57 minutes ago, robinsm said:

just give 3 calls...downwind, base, and final gives everyone your location

Usually, a final call isn't much use. By then you should have a good picture of other traffic, so give the final call if you think there is a real possibility of conflict.

 

You can have to many calls when the circuit gets busy - which is when you really need the important ones.

[facthunter]

When YOU press the Button YOU can't hear them. Pause before transmitting and keep calls brief to reduce the Possibility of being OVER someone else.. You must account for ALL aircraft in the circuit or you are using HOPE. Don't be against Straight IN. They are on the ground and clear in no time. Nev

[aro]

9 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Don't be against Straight IN. They are on the ground and clear in no time

Time isn't the problem. They spend the same amount of time in the high risk area (short final) as anyone else. The problem is that they can't make significant adjustments to their own path to fit in with other traffic, so they expect everyone else to adjust around them. In theory they are supposed to give way, but that rarely happens.

 

I've been in the circuit when there's been 3-4 aircraft in the circuit, and flying school aircraft returning from navs doing straight in approaches. There were aircraft at 1 mile final, 2 mile final, 3 mile final, and 5 mile final, all yakking on the radio to decide whether they really were at 1 mile and 2 miles, or 1.4 miles and 1.6 miles. No-one knows how to go around and join a normal circuit to fit in with existing traffic and meanwhile there's a couple of aircraft on downwind trying to figure out when to turn base so they can fit in.

[facthunter]

You are on an anti straight in Crusade. There ARE times when it's best. Particularly if the extra plane is much Faster. Something like a Dash 8. THIS HAS been researched. It's got nought to do with being RUDE.  Nev

Edited yesterday at 02:20 AM by facthunter
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