eightyknots Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 I agree , anyone who puts their hand up to be on any board, deserves a bit of respect, apathy is the disease in most organizations. I don't have any more insight than most of the posters on here ,or other forums but I wonder how much support the current (and former) board members feel they have, it certainly is heroic to even want to step up, regardless of where this all goes I hope Don and Bill can move on and hopefully enjoy their flying pursuits from here on, and hopefully the next people that volunteer will get treated a little better Yes, I agree. .....and that the Governance and Management boundaries will be properly observed and respected. See post #94. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Is it time to call in ASIC or similar? No, there is no public evidence of anything at this stage; all the players are busy not saying anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 I don't think ASIC has any jurisdiction for Incorporated Associations. That is what the RAA is isn't it? In ACT? ACT Dept of Fair Trade? As usual we can only assume these resignations have occurred as a result of clashes of ideologies and/or personalities, that is the way it usually transpires in associations like this. Since I have been an RAA member the board of management (as a whole, not individually, as I don't know really know anything about the individuals) has appeared quite dysfunctional. There is nothing new under the sun and, obviosuly, people are locking horns in management. To carry the analogy further, there have to be Alpha males at the centre of it. Who are they and if they shouldn't be there how can they be removed. One of the first issues of debate on hand when I ventured into this organisation was some new clause or requirement about in camera meetings and board secrecy agreements. Did that ever eventuate? If it did; it is easy to see why this particularity unenlightening thread exists AND why the secrecy requirements should be abandoned. I don't even think it would be lawful. If it did not get through then why is everyone keeping so silent? Speak up and tell the membership what is going on so they can help or participate in a resolution. If the latter is the case what is the big stick being waived around to keep everything hush hush? and who is wielding it? It appears extortionate to me. I lost a whole lot of what I considered pretty relevant, well considered and pertinent information relating to governance of Incorporated Associations in the wash out of the forum on these types of topics towards the end of last year. Above, a number of posters are drawing analogies with Corporate law and governance, there are similarities to be drawn in the expectations of board members to act in good faith and with due care and diligence ('business judgement rule') but there are worthwhile differences to be drawn as well, foremost: Our board is voted in! It is the board that runs the organisation and they appoint the CEO who must act under the boards direction. The board members can not be held liable for speaking out about issues they believe are required to be spoken about if it is in good faith for the Association. What concerns and frustrates me the most, being none the wiser for what is going on, is the stonewalling. The board in its entirety has a duty to act in good faith with due care and diligence and that means transparency ... what are the issues? What are the threats being made to keep the membership ignorant? Nothing new under the sun.... Corporate psychopath and the cronies are causing havoc?... lunatics running the asylum?.... tail wagging dog? who knows? Not me! That's the answer though isn't it; if you don't know you can't act. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damkia Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 I would be pushing for an independent observer in all board meetings as a bare minimum - someone that can independently verify business arising out of the board meetings. Look at a management consultant? ~6000 members at $190/yr should be able to carry the cost of a few consultations and recommendations by a M/C to iron out the flow of business procedures. We're talking a $1M+ organisation here... IIRC it is a requirement that minutes of all management meetings are produced for the members of any Incorporated Organisation (unless the rules have changes since I was last an Inc Club secretary). Morally this is what should happen anyway given who's money they are administering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 ...... there have to be Alpha males at the centre of it. Who are they and if they shouldn't be there how can they be removed..... Indeed, Alpha males are good if you want to prove or disprove Darwin theory of natural evolution, but testosterone should be checked at the door of a boardroom and compromise should be the replacment hormone of choice. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 And this is why the RAA has no direction, you have people at the top that see any sort of change as a threat to their powerbase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Another FT exclusive.Most of the rank and bloody file didn't even bother to VOTE! Most of the rest didn't bother to even make basic phone calls do basic research. It's very much self inflicted! Call me what you will here, but, ever since joining the AUF, none of the candidates (bar one), are people I have been in any way familiar with. So making a decision about which candidate is best, based soley on a statement (usually a generic one size fits all) printed in a magazine is just the same as closing my eyes and pointing. How is it possible to make an educated decision, when you've never knowingly met, or even dealt with the people involved? I've been a member(AUF/RAA) or around 14 years now, and this forum (member for a couple of months) is the only politics I've been exposed to. Is this just a storm in a teacup (or forum)? or is stuff really going down? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Call me what you will here, but, ever since joining the AUF, none of the candidates (bar one), are people I have been in any way familiar with. So making a decision about which candidate is best, based soley on a statement (usually a generic one size fits all) printed in a magazine is just the same as closing my eyes and pointing. How is it possible to make an educated decision, when you've never knowingly met, or even dealt with the people involved?I've been a member(AUF/RAA) or around 14 years now, and this forum (member for a couple of months) is the only politics I've been exposed to. Is this just a storm in a teacup (or forum)? or is stuff really going down? And perhaps that is why voter turn out is as poor as it is. That said, I'd like to think that enquiring minds are at work and I and the others on these forums and others like it, like to hear what candidates are thinking and forums like this give people a mechanism to communicate with at least some of the membership to cover their qualities and experiences in more detail than the 1/4 page allowed in the mag ever can. with regard to your last statement/question, IMHO no its not storm in a tea cup, please count up the number of board members who have resigned before the end of the term in the last 5 years or so. Its a lot in the last few years. Having spoken to a couple the experiences that drive the choices seem to be very similar. But, dont take the unreliable and effectively annonymous comments on here as gospel, do as I suggested earlier and ring a couple of current and ex board members and get a feel as to whether everything is Ok. For me, the fact that the Treasurer resigned when he went into the position with eyes wide open, and because of professional training and experience has worked in a commercial context at board level before is, in the abscence of a public statement from him, of concern to me. If you ring and discuss as suggested then perhaps you can feedback as to whether your chats left you warm and fuzzy or concerned. For me it was the latter. Whether my concern is justified or not I hope will be addressed in the coming weeks when Im told it will all become clearer (I dont know how that will come to pass, but have no reason to not trust what I was told).... Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Received a reply from Steve R thanking me for my concern over the recent resignations, also stated ' further issues with regards to aircraft registrations that were highlighted during a followup CASA audit and more recently there has been uncertainty with regards of the organizations insurance policy.' Now that last bit seems a bit of a worry. anyone else received similar from him or others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 And perhaps that is why voter turn out is as poor as it is. Andy I guess in a round about way, that was what I was trying to say. Consider also the nature of a lot of those who only members so that they can fly, and generally have no interest in the politics, those that have the interest in politics often (but not always) have less interest in the flying. I do understand that if one does not vote then they really have no right to complain about the direction things go. That said, I'm willing to bet I'm one of many, who is a member only because it is a legal requirement for me to fly the only way I can afford to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Consider also the nature of a lot of those who only members so that they can fly, and generally have no interest in the politics... If you need a Pilot Certificate and/or registered RA aircraft to fly you better get interested in politics fast if you want to keep flying. How on earth do you think you are able to fly? You're SELF Administered! Are you still going to show disinterest if your pilot certificate lapses - it's not being issued by the Government but by you, or more precisely your proxy......and you don't care who that is? or what he/she is doing with your money? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Received a reply from Steve R thanking me for my concern over the recent resignations, also stated ' further issues with regards to aircraft registrations that were highlighted during a followup CASA audit and more recently there has been uncertainty with regards of the organizations insurance policy.' Now that last bit seems a bit of a worry.anyone else received similar from him or others? Perhaps if you re-read my post #75 below you may see the answers ... the rego issue is the local manufacturers losing their 24 regos due losing their LSA status and the insurance could be related to directors liability due the poor governance that has occurred around the certification around local manufacturer and aircraft certification for certain classes of registration. What could our insurers be thinking with all this failure of governance. Then again it could be argued to the insurers that RA Aus has got its act together and discovered these problems and is acting to resolve them. Hmmm ... would you hang a round if you were a director and you realised your personal assets may be exposed and the person whose watch it all happened under was not held accountable by the Board and was in fact given a salary increase by the Board?????? As members we should be very concerned about this. And we don't think that the ones who have just resigned with the possibility of there being more yet to resign did not qualify with the above criteria???? Yet they have resigned ... come on guys do you think you could make any difference if the ones we held our hopes in have resigned ... get a grip and lets step out of naive Territory please.Under the current conditions you need more than just what is defined above, you need good corporate governance experience and the 'BALLS' to implement it. That is the current key problem when you have a board who cannot for reasons of too many Board members who don't have experience and a good grip on corporate governance and won't hold the CEO accountable for poor performance that has the potential to bring OUR organisation down big time. For Pete's sake ... ask yourself how we could possibly have got ourselves in the current huge liability position where we are having to ground all these 'LSA' aircraft that obviously should have NEVER been given LSA status. Isn't it bloody obvious ... do you think we are grounding them for fun ... I do NOT think so. There are huge management issues at stake here. Who was in control when all this happened and why is he NOT being held accountable? That is the question that the Board needs to answer. The Board needs to get its act together and make the management accountable. Imagine the liability this mismanagement could bring on the individual board members ... why do you think they are resigning????? The Board structure (our current constitution) and the current cooperative attitude is all part of the problem. And for the benefit of the naive, the above could only be the logical conclusion any reasonable person could draw ... how did all this happen under the CEO's watch and why is he still there? In any normal corporate sense the CEO would be held accountable. Has anyone seen the accountability. It would appear the Board is impotent! I make no apology for my strong words ... unchecked this management incompetence could destroy us and we should all be demanding that our reps come out publicly with this information 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 I want to know what are the terrible things which have been done by board members. Over quite a long period of time I have read that terrible things have been done, but nobody has ever explained what thos things are. Just recently I read that a couple of board members must resign, but no explaination as to why. A while back a similar thing occured and I wa told to ring someone to get the lowdown on what was wrong. My opinion is that if board members have so seriously transgressed, the people who are accusing them must publish their facts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Perhaps if you re-read my post #75 below you may see the answers ... the rego issue is the local manufacturers losing their 24 regos due losing their LSA status and the insurance could be related to directors liability due the incompetence that has occurred around the certification around local manufacturer and aircraft certification for certain classes of registration. What could our insurers be thinking with all this incompetence. Then again it could be argued to the insurers that RA Aus has got its act together and discovered these problems and is acting to resolve them. Hmmm ... would you hang a round if you were a director and you realised your personal assets may be exposed and the person whose watch it all happened under was not being held accountable and was in fact given a salary increase??????As members we should be very concerned about this. AGAIN... IN BOLD LETTERS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 I want to know what are the terrible things which have been done by board members. Over quite a long period of time I have read that terrible things have been done, but nobody has ever explained what thos things are. Just recently I read that a couple of board members must resign, but no explaination as to why. A while back a similar thing occured and I wa told to ring someone to get the lowdown on what was wrong. My opinion is that if board members have so seriously transgressed, the people who are accusing them must publish their facts. Try making a phone call to your local member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 One of the big issues here is that to expose any of the true facts could get the poster in trouble...that is the problem with forums...for example if I released what I have, and thus fact, there would be trouble for both myself and several others including RAAus members however, I am personally willing to stand by what I say which is based on true facts, supported by evidence but I just can't tell you in an open forum...and in fact in respect of one thing, a HUGE legal matter, saying something could jeopardise things...so please understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Can anyone confirm if the organisation has been uninsured for any period of time recently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 I want to know what are the terrible things which have been done by board members. Over quite a long period of time I have read that terrible things have been done, but nobody has ever explained what thos things are. Just recently I read that a couple of board members must resign, but no explaination as to why. A while back a similar thing occured and I wa told to ring someone to get the lowdown on what was wrong. My opinion is that if board members have so seriously transgressed, the people who are accusing them must publish their facts. Yenn, None of this implies 'terrible' acts by Board members other than a failure of the Board to hold the CEO accountable. If the Board doesn't hold staff accountable to the Board when there have been the governance failures and failures to conform to Board directives then it can be alledged that the Board has simply failed in their duty. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Can anyone confirm if the organisation has been uninsured for any period of time recently? Steve, I suggest you ask one of the Board members that question right now ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 The only call to resign as far as I can recall was by Ian and it was Tizzard and Runciman mentioned there They are the CEO and President respectively. Nev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 The last few posts bear out my views. People are saying the wrong thing is being done, but won't state what. I am not saying that they are acting incorrectly, but before i can agree to what they are calling for I want to know the facts. If they are facts, bringing them out into the open should not make them legally liable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 The last few posts bear out my views. People are saying the wrong thing is being done, but won't state what. I am not saying that they are acting incorrectly, but before i can agree to what they are calling for I want to know the facts. If they are facts, bringing them out into the open should not make them legally liable. Yenn If my posts are part of your problem then I apologise, I dont know what is wrong other than feedback I have recieved from talking to a couple of ex board members in recent times. Rather than do the he said, she said thing, I reiterate please ring your local board member, and even some of the interstaters and get their feel to determin if all is well in the land of RAA. I have enough info to make me uncomfortable but ABSOLUTELY not enough to say that there is as a statement of FACT a problem. That said, "I smell smoke" and want to understand why, all the while acknowledging it could be becasue there is a problem blasing away, or a controlled backburn.... Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 This is like a jigsaw puzzle, rumour here, hearsay there,fact maybe there. I think the picture is starting to show. keepworking on it guys and gals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 I've never heard you say anything good about the RAAus, f t, and you are not specific. Give it a break. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 I was just clarifying what's wrong with the RAA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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