gandalph Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I've seen 200 hp aero rotary's with a psru, local and os, still thirsty though.. don't remember who was doing the conversion.. Jan Eggenfellner was behind Mazda wankel rotary aero conversionx; PSRU's and now behind VIking areo engine conversion of Honda Jazz engines in the US Do a google search and read the history - Lots of unhappy customers for his earlier endeavours. Maybe he's got something with the Viking. Time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVOCET Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I hear the Mazda rotaries can be heavy on fuel, oil and apex seals, but also that they're about 1/3rd lighter than equivalent engines and very smooth running. Anyone heard of an aero conversion? There was one in Tarree in mid NSW I think it was a Mazda 6 rotary in a jabiru , it was pranged in the test stage , a fuel problem I think . That was about 5 ish years ago 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soleair Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I remember when Norton in England started back up with their twin rotary bike, even had the chance to visit their factory and have ridden their bikes, powerful, fuel efficient and also having success in the racing scene. They were also using them for drones application in the military I believe.These motors were lightweight and powerful and pity they didn't survive as reckon they could have been well suited to our pastime. That Norton rotary engine was one of three engines considered for the ARV Super2. I wonder how that might have turned out. Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Always loved the idea of a rotary, but couldn't find one in my power range. Now we hear of European hybrids with a small Wankel. There is hope yet. They may not be the most fuel efficient, but Mazda rotaries have a great reputation for reliability; you hear of completely stuffed and damaged engines continuing to run until the fuel runs out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soleair Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Yes. And a rotating engine just has to be better for props & simpler than a recip. Devil's in the detail! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted July 25, 2014 Author Share Posted July 25, 2014 I hear the Mazda rotaries can be heavy on fuel, oil and apex seals, but also that they're about 1/3rd lighter than equivalent engines and very smooth running. Anyone heard of an aero conversion? Sorry but most of you aren't quite on track with Mazda rotarys. They are not light, that is a common misconception stemming back to the original mid 60's, "10A" all aluminium smallest rotary which was light, but they are compact. They are not reliable and never have been. After 45 years of development, that sent Mazda broke in the 1970's, they are now only acceptable but rarely last half the distance of any equivalent piston engine. Rotarys stop just like all other engines stop, sometimes a sudden seizure or a 'get you home suffering', no different to a piston engine failure depending on exactly what fails. the most common that some of you have heard of is apex seals exiting out the exhaust port, akin to piston ring failure or burning a valve. If you have main bearing, same as a piston engine or a side gear failure, as serious as breaking a con-rod, you have a big problem. Rotarys are heavier on fuel, that is a simple fact of physics. the cresent shaped and very long combustion chamber simply transfers heat into the combustion chamber's greater surface area rather than using the available energy to push the rotor. The compression build up time being typically 1.5 times the build up time of a piston engine exasperates the situation offering more time for the heat to escape. The far ends of the combustion chamber are also dead areas for burn, or lack of. They also need oil cooling to the tune of about 40% the efficiency of your water cooling, that means 2 radiators. In their favour ,they are smooth, compact and low in the evil TVs which is good for a plane. Yes there are Mazda rotary conversions, have a bit of a following too in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I hear the Mazda rotaries can be heavy on fuel, oil and apex seals, but also that they're about 1/3rd lighter than equivalent engines and very smooth running. Anyone heard of an aero conversion? My RX2 still remains the most explosive and exciting car I've ever owned. You could spin the wheels passing someone at 160 km/hr, and cruise around 200 km/hr; once came from Albury to Melbourne sitting on 209 km/hr. The downside was that power under 4000 rpm was about the same as a 1 litre engine so you had to continually change down and that chewed up the fuel. The apex seals were fine, but the O ring seals on the side sometimes burnt out on a long cruise into a strong head wind which required maximum power demand from 90 km/hr up. In high power applications the combustion chamber flame licks down the cracks until it found the silicon seal. I became an expert it pulling the engine out and replacing the 6 or so O rings - no steel wear so fully repeatable, but time consuming and I was using it for work, so had to sell it. If you look at the constant rpm/high power demand of a boat or aircraft engine it fits into the over 4000 rpm, high combustion chamber flame category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maulonir Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 There is an RV up North here with a rotary in it that is putting out around 160hp. The guy tells me power to weight and fuel burn to HP it is allot better that an equivalent HP lyc or Cont engine, also cost to maintain is ridiculously cheaper as well not only parts but because it's not a certified engine he does the maintenance himself. I've had a look at set up and it is a neat little engine fuel injected with a planetary drive type reduction on it. I really liked it. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I think the Mazda is heavier/larger than what I was contemplating. The racing outboards are where I would look. I have seen a Norton in a peradactyl? but it is aircooled and they get hot at the port so would benefit from liquid cooling. If they start they will get you home. That is what I like about them. Silencing them is a bit of a problem. Require reduction gear usually from an auto transmission. Sun and planetary. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetboy Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 When I needed to choose for my 701 (max 80kg installed / 100 hp) the Diamond AE110R was my first choice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MidWest_AE_series This was to be a development of the Midwest Rotary which started as a BSA/Norton engine, but Diamond (Austro) nowdays only do the singe rotor versions - and they dont do that well if the SBs are anything to go by. I was also considering a single rotor "derivative of Mazda" NZ design based on the Kahu Gyro project - which was to be produced in China but had to be shelved. The idea of a single rotor does not appeal due to a single apex seal problem taking out 2/3 of the engine compared to 1/3 for a 2 rotor design - although a single rotor is likely easier to cool as both sides are available. Part of the appeal was the possibility of running on kerosene fuel although this doesnt appear to be successful for the Midwest. My wishlist included the smoothness of 120` firing (like a 3 cyl 2-stroke) and AVgas / Jet-A fuel in addition to the usual power/weight/reliability/cost factors. From then (2003) to now the scene has changed little, the compromise I made was a J2200 which has done OK in my application, however it may need replacement and I'd like to meet some of the original goals Wam 120, Diesel Air, D-motor and others like the Evinrude rotary have appeared briefly but not become available Bex's project has some interesting aspects, hope it progresses as planned. Nice to see someone actually doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 I'm not proposing the consideration of rotaries as a competitor to the Bex concept. It's more a powerful, small engine to replace the two strokes, VW's etc at the single seat smaller engine segment. and have reliability.. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVOCET Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Sorry but most of you aren't quite on track with Mazda rotarys.They are not light, that is a common misconception stemming back to the original mid 60's, "10A" all aluminium smallest rotary which was light, but they are compact. They are not reliable and never have been. After 45 years of development, that sent Mazda broke in the 1970's, they are now only acceptable but rarely last half the distance of any equivalent piston engine. Rotarys stop just like all other engines stop, sometimes a sudden seizure or a 'get you home suffering', no different to a piston engine failure depending on exactly what fails. the most common that some of you have heard of is apex seals exiting out the exhaust port, akin to piston ring failure or burning a valve. If you have main bearing, same as a piston engine or a side gear failure, as serious as breaking a con-rod, you have a big problem. Rotarys are heavier on fuel, that is a simple fact of physics. the cresent shaped and very long combustion chamber simply transfers heat into the combustion chamber's greater surface area rather than using the available energy to push the rotor. The compression build up time being typically 1.5 times the build up time of a piston engine exasperates the situation offering more time for the heat to escape. The far ends of the combustion chamber are also dead areas for burn, or lack of. They also need oil cooling to the tune of about 40% the efficiency of your water cooling, that means 2 radiators. In their favour ,they are smooth, compact and low in the evil TVs which is good for a plane. Yes there are Mazda rotary conversions, have a bit of a following too in the US. Hi Bex, what's an : evil TVs Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Update, Update?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Update, Update?? That sounds very Dalek speak to me. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted July 26, 2014 Author Share Posted July 26, 2014 I'm not proposing the consideration of rotaries as a competitor to the Bex concept. Not at all, I didn't construe it that way :-) Hi Bex, what's an : evil TVsMike Torsional Vibrations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 The enemy of all "pulsy" things and their drives.. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camel Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Similar to yours Bex but diesel ? Similar to Gemini or WAM aircraft diesel ? There is a bit about this engine on another forum Also see http://www.weslake.eu/news/newspages/dieselareoengine.html. This is interesting. What do you think Bex ? Image of aircraft engine dated May 2014. BWM Lightweight Diesel Marine Engine Specification Engine Type: Turbo-Supercharged Opposed Piston Layout: 4 Piston - HorizontalBore & Stroke: 74.2 x 77 mmDisplacement: 1332 ccRated Power: 100 HP (75kw) at 4800 Output RPMDry Weight: 75kgFuel: DieselCooling System: Closed Loop – Water / Glycol MixOil System: Dry SumpElectrical Supply: 12 VoltDimensions: Width: 612 mm / Height: 425 mm / Length: 575 mm 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy s Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 The Weslake is a neat looking unit and have always been a fan of diesels and will be interesting to see how it goes in the aviation world. A lightweight diesel would have been unheard of years ago and reckon the fuel economy would be exceptional me thinks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Weslake certainly has a very interesting pedigree. Their Diesel variant will hopefully have potential as long as they can use engine heat to heat the diesel and have it circulating through the tank, other wise low temps at altitude will cause problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Weslake certainly has a very interesting pedigree. Their Diesel variant will hopefully have potential as long as they can use engine heat to heat the diesel and have it circulating through the tank, other wise low temps at altitude will cause problems. If that was an issue there are readily available heater elements which we've used in the truck industry for many years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 I think it would be easier to recirculate the fuel through the tank wouldn't it Tubz; a separate heater is one less point of failure to worry about. If they used a high pressure common rail design like my Landcruiser (using the fuel as pump lubricant), the returning fuel goes through a cooling unit under the floor, so obviously lots of heat available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 You could be right, I haven't been asked to specify a heater for some time, just assumed the wax in the Australian diesel product had been removed or chemically changed.You still have an issue with non-electric on startup, but it's only wax so probably only requires some additional warm up time set aside. Diamond have had diesel engines for six or seven years no, so there should be something available on their experience, although you would have to check Australian aircraft only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Hey bex, sonex just released a 100hp turbo VW engine for $11k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted July 28, 2014 Author Share Posted July 28, 2014 Hey bex, sonex just released a 100hp turbo VW engine for $11k Thank you for the update. Rotax just sold it's 50,000th 912. Every type will always have it's dedicated followers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted July 28, 2014 Author Share Posted July 28, 2014 Similar to yours Bex but diesel ? Similar to Gemini or WAM aircraft diesel ? Similar to the DAIR http://dair.co.uk/ Only similar to mine in that it's an opposed piston but I stayed away from a 2/4 cylinder because of the extra secondary forces. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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