Oscar Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Engine development is a long, tedious, and oftimes fraught path. I know this from first-hand experience, having been deeply involved in the development - to initial running stage - of a two-cylinder, opposed piston 2-stroke diesel aero engine intended to directly replace the Jabiru 2200 (initially) in drones, done at and with the solid support of a significant manufacturing facility owned by someone with an established record of delivering an aero-engine development that has sold many thousands of engines world-wide. The prototype sits forlornly in a family member's shed; still a viable proposition but the funding ran out. I will say no more about its development other than to state that during the building phase, I became addicted to Bundaberg prawns.. Only a handful of people even know it exists, and that is because the primary backer, knowing just how difficult the path can be, did NOT engage in titillating the potential market-place with expectations, CAD drawings, a flashy web-site etc. He knows the old verity that 'to be a successful sausage-seller, one sells the sizzle - but one also has to produce the sausage in the end'. The investment in development was worth well north of A$0.25M; a venture capital broker was promising magnificent riches, but of course that did not transpire into actual spendable $$. There are too many 'paper' engines around spruiking magnificence; look at the history of the Dyna-Cam engine: http://www.aafo.com/hangartalk/showthread.php?6033-MOVED-What-ever-happened-to-the-Dyna-Cam-engine More recently, I was accosted by a principal of the CoAxe engine company: http://www.coaxe.com.au/ - in a supermarket carpark, for gawd's sake! - to help them; anyone looking at their website can see it's horse-manure. I have better things to do with my time than be involved in a project based on flim-flam and fancy marketing. For all the touted wonderful small aero-engine developments of about the past 25 years, only Rotax, Jabiru, UL Power and D-motor have gained any real traction in the market-place; there are others with promise, as yet unfulfilled. You cannot blame the 'punters', Bex, for being skeptical given the weight of evidence against betting on anything less than deliverable pieces of metal with demonstrated performance. Even Porsche could not - ultimately - crack the aero-engine market. If you can succeed in being able to deliver a product into the aero-engine market with the price/performance/reliability parameters you have indicated, then it will represent a paradigm shift in small aero-engine economics - you will be a hero. However, may I politely suggest: it would be better that others proclaim you a hero, than claiming that status pre-emptively? 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Some good words Oscar ( I knew you had it in you). Making a viable sports aero engine is probably one of the most challenging projects you might ever undertake. It's not HP for capacity That's for race bikes and cars. Its HP for WEIGHT reliability and cost. Piston engines are self destructing Heath Robinson contrivances in the hands of misguided untrained self professed experts as operators.. I've many times said go rotary (wankel). The type often used for racing outboards and use reduction gear out of automatic transmissions. IF it will start it will get you home and is slightly more economical than a two stroke. Needs a good muffler though. They bark real bad unmuffled.. PS If I was younger richer and sillier I would probably try an original design of piston engine.. I spent years on an opposed piston two stroke with variable timing and compression, very simple to repair but the politics of pollution might stop that these days. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted May 25, 2015 Author Share Posted May 25, 2015 However, may I politely suggest: it would be better that others proclaim you a hero, than claiming that status pre-emptively? Thanks for a mostly nice post Oscar. 2 things on this part above though, 1/ Well it wouldn't be any fun, not sure about the hero bit, I'm just informing people of what I'm undertaking, if I don't get there, no harm done and just another wanker drifts into oblivion, by no means the first or the last .... 2/ I have pulled every cent from my own pocket to take it this far and have not taken a cent from anyone else nor have I ever asked, so it all rates as rather harmless, and had it not been for an unforseen massive blow elsewhere (not related to anything of mine in the least), I would likely been in market by now. But I'm still smiling and having a laugh ... and importantly, getting there. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDQDI Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Keep at it Bex, we will keep ribbing you but I would like to think that most of us mean it in a good natured way. 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Geez, you are setting the bar pretty high SDQDI. Good natured????. I suppose I could try it just once. Nev 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Thanks for a mostly nice post Oscar.2/ I have pulled every cent from my own pocket to take it this far and have not taken a cent from anyone else nor have I ever asked, so it all rates as rather harmless, and had it not been for an unforseen massive blow elsewhere (not related to anything of mine in the least), I would likely been in market by now. Bolding - mine. I absolutely acknowledge that - and salute you for it, too many try to pre-sell their 'miracle' while the dove is still in the egg, as it were. My main point is: the experience of those who do have an engine in the marketplace is that it never, never, turns out to be as quick, simple, or cheap as they had anticipated; you cannot have failed to notice that UL Power and D-motor are generally more expensive than Jabirus and neither have the certified/ certificated status of (various models of) Jabiru or Rotax engines. I sincerely suggest, that situation is not a result of them being unwilling to try to be more price/performance competitive than the established market, but a reflection on the realities of development cost and complexity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Geez, you are setting the bar pretty high SDQDI. Good natured????. I suppose I could try it just once. Nev Nev, I'm beginning to suspect that under that gruff, bluff, crusty exterior you are actually hiding a sense of humour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunder Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 I think the key to success is getting aircraft manufacturers on board and fitting the engine to their aircraft. Gives the credibility a large shove in the backside....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdseye Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Sounds like an opportunity for Jabiru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_d Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Some good words Oscar ( I knew you had it in you). Making a viable sports aero engine is probably one of the most challenging projects you might ever undertake.It's not HP for capacity That's for race bikes and cars. Its HP for WEIGHT reliability and cost. Piston engines are self destructing Heath Robinson contrivances in the hands of misguided untrained self professed experts as operators.. I've many times said go rotary (wankel). The type often used for racing outboards and use reduction gear out of automatic transmissions. IF it will start it will get you home and is slightly more economical than a two stroke. Needs a good muffler though. They bark real bad unmuffled.. PS If I was younger richer and sillier I would probably try an original design of piston engine.. I spent years on an opposed piston two stroke with variable timing and compression, very simple to repair but the politics of pollution might stop that these days. Nev Something like this? http://www.freedom-motors.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=&id=110%3Arotapowerstandard-automotive-engine-comparison&Itemid=75 120 hp, 54.5 kg... of course you might need a gearbox too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 phhht moller skycar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted May 25, 2015 Author Share Posted May 25, 2015 but a reflection on the realities of development cost and complexity. Indeed, 99% of all similar manufacturing businesses need to recover their initial investment as quickly as possible, often many of them are fighting a time clock called bank interest (whatever source) of which they need to stay ahead of. I am fortunate to not be in that position. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_d Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 phhht moller skycar Just because the vehicle concept is a steaming pile, doesn't mean the engine's a dog. Anyone had experience of their rotary? I notice the website doesn't mention aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 clicked on the first (most recent) news article and it was going on about $5B in sales .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diesel Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Dear Santa, all I want for Xmas is a 12 cylinder two strke diesel. It will weigh about 85kg and produce around 130 cruise horsepower. As it does not require any compression it will be turbine smooth with no torsional issues. I look forward to Xmas. I promise to be good and will not break my aeroplane. Chas 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Bex will release news about its imminent production status in about two weeks. $5k purchase, 3,000 hours TBO and full overhaul for just under $2k to zero-time condition. Fits Rotax/Jabiru/Lycoming/Continental mounts. The IFA contra -rotating props, a $2k option, or build your own from Bunnings-available materials. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diesel Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Bex will release news about its imminent production status in about two weeks. $5k purchase, 3,000 hours TBO and full overhaul for just under $2k to zero-time condition. Fits Rotax/Jabiru/Lycoming/Continental mounts. The IFA contra -rotating props, a $2k option, or build your own from Bunnings-available materials. Thanks Oscar. It takes a lot of effort to do this. Others mentioned the tall poppy. Remembe the Victor and Henry Millicer. A famous Aussie story. Chas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Actually,it's the Victa, and a family member was on the team with Henry Millicer at Victa. I worked on a Victa about six weeks ago, a mate sustained Victas (was the signatory for mods etc. before the Airtourer Association came into being) for years. And your point is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diesel Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Actually,it's the Victa, and a family member was on the team with Henry Millicer at Victa. I worked on a Victa about six weeks ago, a mate sustained Victas (was the signatory for mods etc. before the Airtourer Association came into being) for years. And your point is? The way the system shot him down in flames. The late Frank Rogers was there too. Somewhere on my computor is the Millicer story. A brilliant guy. Chas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Who/what 'shot him down in flames?' The Victa (and its child, the CT4) are still respected and valued aircraft. Victa as a manufacturer was hung out to dry by the failure of the government to decide it warranted tariff protection. Henry was never 'shot down in flames', though many Victa owners have privately wished he had a better understanding of 'production' engineering' - a Victa is a bugger to repair, not least because every one was 'hand-made' and many critical parts have to be fabricated to match the actual airframe. If anybody was 'shot down in flames', it was Merv Richardson, shot down by the Tariff Board decision. I suggest you revise your appreciation of the history of the Airtourer. Bob McGillivray can give you some pointers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 I have no doubt you're an expert on Victa's Oscar ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Absolutely! I even have a spare engine - complete with carby- for that one if you need it for baseline test purposes! Happy to donate it to the good cause. I can't guarantee the condition, the only Victas I have worked on in the last fifteen years had wings. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 That's not the oldest Victa Mower. The original engine was a Hurricane with one piece cylinder and head. I have one (without the mower) in good nick. Merv Richardson ran Victa at Bankstown. Millicer was involved with the initial design. I think there was some kind of competition for the design. People who worked for Richardson were extremely loyal and loved working there. Sunbeam (USA) bought out the mowers and the Plane went to the Kiwi's. I think the American 3 ganged up on the Victa. I forget the details surrounding the Aust demise. I flew the early version with the 100 HP engine Cont 0-200 as part of an evaluation. It was a bit underpowered and had the bigger 115 HP Lyc installed soon after.. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarly Gnu Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Apparently the straight-six is making a comeback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 In somebody's opinion. At quite normal revs the harmonics come into play. Crankshaft too long and twisty for high rpm. Also for aircraft more than anything else, extra weight over flat six, or V 6... Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now