Bruce Tuncks Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 This makes me feel sick. By far the most dangerous thing I do in flying is being forced to fly lower than safe so that I can leave COMPLETELY UNUSED airspace above me and this is enforced by CASA. In my life, I could afford one new plane ( a Jabiru) and it has performed flawlessly since 2001, I admit it has been operated with care and given good maintenance. While I could have actually afforded a Rotax powered thing, I didn't want to pay their high costs and I never would have bought one. Now we have bureaucrats, who never earned the cost of their food by doing anything useful, coming in to do damage to Jabiru. The risk of CASA controlled airspace dangers would be 100 times the danger I risk with my Jabiru engine.My dream is for CASA funding to be stopped. 2 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhysmcc Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Typical over reaction by the bureaucrats. With proper consultation and collaboration improvements for anything could be made - heavy handed action achieves nothing - now who will be left to make it happen? While it does seem very much heavy handed and over the top, we don't know if CASA have been trying to work with Jabiru for a while now to address these issues and got no where. A bit like the issues CASA and RAA was having a couple years ago where the fleet was grounded until improvements started to head in the right direction. As a Jab flyer, I hope this can be sorted out quickly and in favour of the pilots and owners. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlegg Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 CASA is responding to a high, and increasing, rate of engine failures among aircraft that are powered by engines manufactured by, or under licence from, Jabiru Aircraft Pty Ltd (Jabiru). Such aircraft are referred to in this document as 'Jabiru powered aircraft'. The issues appear to be the result of several failure modes, which require separate investigation. CASA has formed the view that its functions under the Civil Aviation Act 1988 require it to mitigate certain risks to passengers, trainee pilots and persons on the ground. Accordingly, while CASA works with Jabiru to identify the causes of these engine failures and to implement appropriate corrective actions, CASA proposes a set of operating limitations on Jabiru powered aircraft. The last para says it all. I would be very surprised if things aren't sorted out in the next few days, no doubt intense discussions to follow in a CASA office. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01rmb Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 People affected by this need to speak up now before this becomes law or risk losing hundreds of millions of dollars in personal assets and Australian aviation in general. For all those that want a say in how to resolve this situation write to Lee Ungermann Email:[email protected]. It would have been great to have had RA-Aus as a lobby group but unfortunately they are the lead on this travesty against Jabiru owners, operators, training schools and pilots. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Jab will be fine. The facts will show the reality of the situation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultralights Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 im trying to look at everything the same way i do at work, there is obviously one major failure mode, the through bolt failure. if its operator or maintainer error, then you would look at your published procedures to determine what are these maintainers and operators are doing wrong, and re-write the manuals, and publish a procedure to follow to prevent errors, if this cannot be done, or fails to solve the issue, then you would look at a re-design of the problem area, so it can be maintained with no error, or eliminate the problem altogether. its called R&D.. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank marriott Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 People affected by this need to speak up now before this becomes law or risk losing hundreds of millions of dollars in personal assets and Australian aviation in general. For all those that want a say in how to resolve this situation write to Lee Ungermann Email:[email protected].It would have been great to have had RA-Aus as a lobby group but unfortunately they are the lead on this travesty against Jabiru owners, operators, training schools and pilots. RAA seem better suited to stay with issuing SBs on how to use a funnel. 8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XAIRVTW Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 I think everyone is jumping to a lot conclusions which is understandable. This is just a draft nothing is set as yet. Whether these proposal's or more will come in affect only time will tell. If there is one positive that comes out of this at least the company will have to act one way or another. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XAIRVTW Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 RAA seem better suited to stay with issuing SBs on how to use a funnel. When it comes to the RAA there bark is worse than their bit. That is if you hear their bark! Silence can be deafening??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxy Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 ok.... i dont have much of an idea when it comes to maintenance, however, i do know how qualified maintainers have to do the work for a training school, to all manuals as stipulated by the engine manufacturer... so any maintenance is done as put out by jabiru, therefor they have no merit in saying its the engineers fault for doing it wrong! As an owner of a jabiru that has had countless problems (some having been caused from the jabiru factory themselves), i believe i have a right to put my two bobs worth in, too. I am certainly not happy about what is happening from the draft.... HOWEVER....... i believe it needed to be done!!! There have been far too many issues ongoing, and not rectified. Jab wash their hands of an overhauled engine after 1 month, and of a brand new engine after 2 months!!! 2 months?????? Ridiculous! Finally something is being done about attempting to have this factory pony up and accept responsibility! 4 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Where has Ungermann been these last 3 years? Why hasn't he been talking to Rod & Co & working with Jab to resolve these issues. This seems to me to be another standard adversarial approach to the industry as identified in the Forsyth report. In The US or UK or Canada or NZ the regulator & the manufacturer would have been talking about these issues over a pint after the first failure. No not here in good old OZ. We are CASA, we tell you what to do, we stick the knife in when you make a mistake, we make you look like crap & tell you that the high and increasing rate of failure (give us the stats) means we can justify our big brother approach. You will be safe when all aircraft cannot fly above ground level. 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 UL, no doubt as to your sincerity but the failure mode is NOT through bolts, thats the end result. No one knows for sure whats causing the problems or why they are random. Exactly why this forced action is likely to speed up patches and symptomatic upgrades. Like others before, just cost owners money with little result Foxy you and others are assuming Jabiru will be able to fix the problem and not wind up business here and leave us with single aeat aircraft. Extra lucky if you have an LSA you wont even be able to implement the magical upgrades IF someone else discovers it Ungerman should focus on setting regulation on place allowing upgrades ,when they are developed, most likely by others, to be implamented 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thruster87 Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 To Jabiru Fleet,Will the silent majority please become vocal as soon as possible to protect your flying privileges!! Rodney Stiff and Susan Woods have just landed in Canberra and will be meeting with CASA @ 11am tomorrow morning with Legal Representation and will be fighting for your privileges!! WE NEED YOUR SUPPORT URGENTLY by responding to Lee Ungermann at email: [email protected] via the below link as we only have a week for responses to be submitted Refer to Link: http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS%3ASTANDARD%3A%3Apc=PC_102279 Regards, Jabiru Team JABIRU AIRCRAFT PTY LTD Airport Drive Bundaberg West QLD 4670 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignition Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 CASA are NOT attacking Jabiru, nor are they trying to destroy Jabiru. Look at it from a different perspective rather than jump to Jabiru's defence. This is an opportunity from CASA who are willing to offer their resources to help Jabiru with the research and development to improve the Jabiru product. Most companies would love for that same luxury of access to those kind of resources. Every single product has room to improve, nothing is perfect, not even Jabiru and their engines. It would be very unwise to work against CASA, I can't name many companies, if any, who have succesfully done so and survived. Jabiru need to grab on to this and use it to their own benefit. If they wish to survive the next 12 months they need to work with CASA, improve the product, it really isn't a huge ask. 13 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxy Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 no no jetjr....i have no belief whatsoever that jab will be able to fix the problem... none at all...... if they had have been able to, we wouldnt be in the situation we are currently with their gazillian problems! i think you are correct.... single seat aircraft... not the fantastic trainer they were depicted as! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 CASA are NOT attacking Jabiru, nor are they trying to destroy Jabiru. Look at it from a different perspective rather than jump to Jabiru's defence.This is an opportunity from CASA who are willing to offer their resources to help Jabiru with the research and development to improve the Jabiru product. Most companies would love for that same luxury of access to those kind of resources. Every single product has room to improve, nothing is perfect, not even Jabiru and their engines. It would be very unwise to work against CASA, I can't name many companies, if any, who have succesfully done so and survived. Jabiru need to grab on to this and use it to their own benefit. If they wish to survive the next 12 months they need to work with CASA, improve the product, it really isn't a huge ask. Rubbish, this is CASAs standard approach to any issue. They do not work WITH the industry, they want to control it and their head to head attitude does nothing but get the industry and users (pilots) backs up. Read the Forsyth report. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarly Gnu Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 It would be very unwise to work against CASA, I can't name many companies, if any, who have succesfully done so and survived. Whyalla Airlines. CASA illegally crushed them, they sued and eventually won a mega payout. Probably no-one at CASA even got demoted, taxpayers just coughed up a little more to cover the ineptitude and the folk of Whyalla are left the worse off. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennyboy320 Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Tiger Airlines were grounded by CASA, result ....major safety improvements for the general public, CASA has a job to do as do aircraft/engine manufacturers. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roscoe Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Just read all this and am a bit confused. I bought my new Factory built Jab in March this year. Am I correct in saying that if this Draft Proposal goes through, I cannot take a non pilot passenger with me on any flight?, or is the Propsal only for Amateur built Aircraft. Mine is RA- Aus registered. Appreciate clarification. I operate from Bankstown in Sydney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01rmb Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Just read all this and am a bit confused.I bought my new Factory built Jab in March this year. Am I correct in saying that if this Draft Proposal goes through, I cannot take a non pilot passenger with me on any flight?, or is the Propsal only for Amateur built Aircraft. Mine is RA- Aus registered. Appreciate clarification. I operate from Bankstown in Sydney. Unfortunately, if this goes through you just bought a single seat aircraft that can't be used over populated areas which would mean you can't operate out of Bankstown. If made law - CASA has just written off the value of your aircraft along with every other aircraft with a Jabiru engine. Myself and many others are in the same sinking boat as yourself. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roscoe Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 I'm not full bottle on all those part 21 regulations, but it does mention experimental certificates. And what about RAA-Aus Factory built models? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Lets hope it doesnt come to that. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01rmb Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 And what about RAA-Aus Factory built models? Yep - it applies to all - 4/6/8 cylinder - the lot. I have a J230 based at Archerfield. So like you I need to find somewhere else to park it to then only fly on my own. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Yep thats right There are plenty flying problem free, several versions of the engine, all restricted. Will be interested in my organisations strong response to CASA regarding this confrontational, massively damaging piece of regulation. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWF Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 There seems to be a considerable amount of hysteria and over-reaction to this proposal. For a start it is still only a proposal - you have a period (albeit rather short) in which to voice your support or objections to the proposal. CASA, Jabiru and RAAus are meeting to hopefully resolve the problem. (There will no doubt be some derogatory comment about this.) The draft Insturment will only apply until June 2015. It could be extended but it could also be cancelled sooner if it is indeed activated. Assuming the reasons for the proposed Instrument are valid the restrictions are fairly reasonable. It could have been much worse - they could have grounded the whole fleet. I am optomoistic that this action will help resolve the percieved problems with Jabiru engines by establishing the facts and determining what the problems (if any) with the engines are and hopefully providing a resolution. Unfortunately there will be considerable inconvenience and/or financial pain to a number of Jabiru engine owners and users (myself included). Here is the CASA summary of the proposal: http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/newrules/download/spc-cd1425ss.pdf and a draft of the proposed Instrument: http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/newrules/download/consult-draft-cd1425ss.pdf You have until 20th November (next Thursday) to get your objections or other comments in to Lee Ungermann at CASA. DWF 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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