jetjr Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Re CAE pricing and some news New core 6cyl is around $14K plus freight,box etc etc - July 2014 It does get new CAE data plate so is not a Jabiru anymore This is in writing from CASA now Ive heard. Apparantly they will refit ancilliaries for around $3K - which matches Geoff info. But theres double freight etc too id guess Whole new engine price would be substantially more, new sump, carb, induction etc are pricey components. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 "Is there any feature of the ATSB investigation that stands out to you that could suggest its results are inaccurate?" Its just the the vibe Doesnt match the "widely known" truth that Jabiru are bad and Rotax is good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Better study it a bit more jet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ornis Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2013/ar-2013-107.aspx Also shown in Figure 1 are the proportions of engine failures or malfunctions that have been recorded as incidents, serious incidents or accidents.[2] Although the accident rate for Jabiru powered aircraft was only slightly higher than for Rotax powered aircraft, both the serious incident rate and incident rate were about double that for Rotax. Jabiru serious incident and incident rate about double that for Rotax. Anecdotally, Rotax don't break up or fall part in flight. Therefore it makes sense to me to look at Jabiru engines. Especially in light of the fact Jabiru won't admit to a problem and have made the engines worse. It's a matter of judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ornis Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 http://flightdesign.com/files/Media/The%20Aviation%20Consumer%20-%20LSA%20Accidents.pdf Discusses the problems with small samples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qolbinau Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 is http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2013/ar-2013-107.aspxAlso shown in Figure 1 are the proportions of engine failures or malfunctions that have been recorded as incidents, serious incidents or accidents.[2] Although the accident rate for Jabiru powered aircraft was only slightly higher than for Rotax powered aircraft, both the serious incident rate and incident rate were about double that for Rotax. Jabiru serious incident and incident rate about double that for Rotax. Anecdotally, Rotax don't break up or fall part in flight. Therefore it makes sense to me to look at Jabiru engines. Especially in light of the fact Jabiru won't admit to a problem and have made the engines worse. It's a matter of judgement. The problem with this interpretation is that 2x a small number is still a small number. I think it is more useful to look at it in real-world terms. For every 10,000 flight hours, you can expect approximately 1 Rotax incident/serious incident and 2 Jabiru incidents/serious incidents. Yes, technically that is twice as many Jabiru incidents. However, both numbers are still small. With such small numbers (but consistent differences across years), for me they suggest that Rotax is producing a more reliable product - and from all I've read about Jabiru engine issues and the manufacturer's response to said issues, probably better customer service. But I'm not sure this data suggests that the Jabiru engines are so inherently unsafe that a passenger should have to sign a waiver to fly in one. It seems like an ACCC-type body rather than CASA should be involved here (a poster in another thread claimed that the only reason Jabiru can get away from the ACCC is because the goods are >$40,000). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ornis Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Many a true word spoken in jest, but it looks like Jabiru pilots get a lot more real-life emergencies so can handle crash landings better. Anyway, perhaps jetjr in right: It's the vibe. Call it seat-of-the-pants... I won't put my ar5e in one. What possibly saved the day for Jabiru was hundreds of new engines were so bad they never left the ground much, or at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Where the 'logic' behind the CASA action is full of holes, is that the entire argument fundamentally hinges on 'potential' harm, and one thing that is very obvious from the statistics is that Jabiru has an extremely good record in that area. Whether you wish to argue that that is a result of safer flying practices because of a heightened apprehension of the possibility of failure, or better occupant protection which is in part a result of additional airframe robustness available to the manufacturer by utilising the weight advantage of the engine, doesn't really matter: the fact is, that on fatality statistics alone, many other recreational aircraft have a demonstrated history of lesser safety than Jabiru. Anybody who doesn't realise that there are really serious potential consequences for the entire recreational fleet from this action, is not thinking the issues through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 It does get new CAE data plate so is not a Jabiru anymore This is in writing from CASA now Ive heard. CASA has supplied confirmation in writing that: the CAMIT engine is not subject to the operational limitations described in 292/14, as this engine is not manufactured by a person under licence from, or under a contract with Jabiru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAFA Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Telling CASA it's wrong, it's unfair, is not going to help. And no, I don't think the slippery slope argument (who's next) applies, nor do I think the false dichotomy argument (you give me no choice except a Jabiru engine and watching TV) will carry much weight either.But then I'm just an ordinary person with no power or authority, just an idea. And that's what most of the submissions to CASA did. The were full of emotion with little facts to back up the emotive submissions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 And that's what most of the submissions to CASA did. The were full of emotion with little facts to back up the emotive submissions. Heresay? Or do we at last have a reliable source of information from someone inside CASA? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAFA Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Heresay? Or do we at last have a reliable source of information from someone inside CASA? Someone posted a link on one of the threads that contained some of the submissions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Someone posted a link on one of the threads that contained some of the submissions. Thanks GAFA, I'll go hunt them up. I'm a bit disappointed though, I thought we might have found a mole in the CASA citadel. Ah well...... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff13 Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 People must be buying up Rotaxs. Three of the links to Rotaxs for sale on the RAA members market are disconnected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 People must be buying up Rotaxs. Three of the links to Rotaxs for sale on the RAA members market are disconnected. Stop looking Geoff, you are only teasing yourself now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I know a bloke selling a good rotax (arent they all?).. PM me if your looking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekliston Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Thin end of the wedge? I and I'm sure you, have just received a CASA email detailing a warning about Rotax engines failing in flight. Does this mean that CASA are about to inflict the same grief on Rotax owners that they have already saddled us Jabiru owners with? I've been following these discussions with interest and overall have noted one thing CASA have right; the old saying "United we stand, divided we fall" instead of standing together as a community of like minded enthusiasts, there is so much divisiveness that we are making CASA's apparent intention of destroying Sport Aviation easy! I find that incredibly disappointing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz3g Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Thin end of the wedge? I and I'm sure you, have just received a CASA email detailing a warning about Rotax engines failing in flight. Does this mean that CASA are about to inflict the same grief on Rotax owners that they have already saddled us Jabiru owners with? I've been following these discussions with interest and overall have noted one thing CASA have right; the old saying "United we stand, divided we fall" instead of standing together as a community of like minded enthusiasts, there is so much divisiveness that we are making CASA's apparent intention of destroying Sport Aviation easy! I find that incredibly disappointing. Please post the email or a link. Kaz 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Thin end of the wedge? I and I'm sure you, have just received a CASA email detailing a warning about Rotax engines failing in flight. Does this mean that CASA are about to inflict the same grief on Rotax owners that they have already saddled us Jabiru owners with? I've been following these discussions with interest and overall have noted one thing CASA have right; the old saying "United we stand, divided we fall" instead of standing together as a community of like minded enthusiasts, there is so much divisiveness that we are making CASA's apparent intention of destroying Sport Aviation easy! I find that incredibly disappointing. Would this be a reaction by CASA to the ATSB figures showing an upsurge of problems with Rotax engines in 2013? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffreywh Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Sorry , I don't believe it......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Thin end of the wedge? I and I'm sure you, have just received a CASA email detailing a warning about Rotax engines failing in flight. Does this mean that CASA are about to inflict the same grief on Rotax owners that they have already saddled us Jabiru owners with? I've been following these discussions with interest and overall have noted one thing CASA have right; the old saying "United we stand, divided we fall" instead of standing together as a community of like minded enthusiasts, there is so much divisiveness that we are making CASA's apparent intention of destroying Sport Aviation easy! I find that incredibly disappointing. Link? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camel Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 And CASA had a specific reason for every case mentioned above. People might not like it but CASA being the regulator can and have acted in the way they see fit.Lightwing and Brumby are still in production the last time I heard, I understand what you are thinking but you need to understand a few serious point. CASA set this up and made the requirements and approved or CASA delegates approved, the Jabiru 2200 engine was CERTIFIED by CASA and if they saw a problem what have they being doing for 20 years. CASA in regard to LSA should and MUST work with industry, their current antics are in breach in my opinion ! I have a document Light Sport Aircraft, airworthiness requirements, SAAA authorised person familiarisation training, Southport Qld. 23rd Sept 2006. It has a picture of a Foxcon Terrier on it. It is an Australian Government Civil Aviation Safety Authority document. If you saw this document you would laugh at what CASA has done. The document I have is the real deal. It say CASA responsible for- Approving LSA standards. -Participate with industry in periodically reviewing LSA standards. -overseeing authorised persons who issue certificates of airworthiness. - registration of aircraft if CASA registered. -impose conditions or directions, if necessary, in the interest of safety. ASTM standards, where is the committee of manufacturers, aviation sport bodies and regulators ? They were meant to be represented internationally ! It says! CASA may impose additional operating limitations in the interest of safety. - CASA must give this to each registered operator of the aircraft. HAVE NOT BEEN NOTIFIED BY CASA, The first LSA had an Adjustable prop in front of CASA who inspected it ! Then they decide it not ok ! The document makes no mention of ATSM on props as there is non on tyres or other accessories ! The Foxcon was deregistered LSA as per a letter to an owner from RAA A recent audit and associated follow up action revealed that the Foxcon Terrier aircraft fitted with an auto engine and belt reduction propeller drive, does not comply with LSA standards and therefore, the aircraft does not qualify for LSA (24----) registration. Regretfully, from today ------ 2012 the special certificate of airworthiness originally issued for the aircraft is invalid therefore. Etc. The Terrier was a 2006 model, so 6 years later they change their mind ! Suddenly discovered an auto engine in it ! CASA created this mess and I'm not falling for their ridiculous games ! They will undo the damage they have done at their expense, if you think I'm wrong see what plane is available to buy or hire when our dollar is 50c US. Before you tag this funny be sure to understand what is going on, our right to fly with minimum regulation is threatened. I own a J230 , I have flown foxcon Terriers and I have many hours in Morgan Siera's. I am not for one minute saying these aircraft have no faults, but tell me what is perfect ! CASA did not help or liaise, it waved its big stick and crushed them ! 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I know you have high safety ethics Camel, But I'm not sure that your target shouldn't have been RAA. I seem to remember these aircraft being caught out by CASA as a result of a series of audits of RAA. There was also an imitation Spitfire caught a after a fatality with the weight under-reported by a couple of hundred kg. Some of these aircraft never met the specifications for RAA registration, and if they hadn't been registered CASA would not have been involved Compared to the standards maintained for GA operations, a few people have been taking liberties within the RAA system. CASA may be using a big stick now, but I've been looking at records on systemic failures as far bak as 2007 - 14 years of history. CASA's current reactions, while stunning and surprising some people, may well be based on a few straws which broke the camel's back. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camel Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I know you have high safety ethics Camel, But I'm not sure that your target shouldn't have been RAA.I seem to remember these aircraft being caught out by CASA as a result of a series of audits of RAA. There was also an imitation Spitfire caught a after a fatality with the weight under-reported by a couple of hundred kg. Some of these aircraft never met the specifications for RAA registration, and if they hadn't been registered CASA would not have been involved Compared to the standards maintained for GA operations, a few people have been taking liberties within the RAA system. CASA may be using a big stick now, but I've been looking at records on systemic failures as far bak as 2007 - 14 years of history. CASA's current reactions, while stunning and surprising some people, may well be based on a few straws which broke the camel's back. Given that you are correct ! Do you remember who was running RAA ? Same thing isn't it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekliston Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I subscribe to the CASA mailing lists and therefore receive ad's for everything up to A380 and this afternoon received an email with the following :- ad.easa.Europa.eu/ad/2014-34 and referred to:- www.casa.gov.au/airworth/awb/index.htm Read it and weep, We really do need to unite over these issues, not pull each other apart, CASA can do that well enough without our help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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