farri Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 I`t been pointed out by several people on this forum,that accidents continue to occur, over and over, for the same reasons, since flying began..If we accept that as being correct, then it appears, there is no way to improve the situation!.If on the other hand, we don`t accept that is correct!. What is the solution?... Is there a solution? Frank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 what if we give people the choice to enjoy risky recreational activities or not? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Its my belief that CASA in general could almost care less if we as aviators kill ourselves or not...but the moment in doing so you take out a non participant or nearly take one out then that is the trigger point for them to step in and apply controls In the latest fatality, today the age writes :- "A pilot has died in a ultralight plane crash just metres from a cafe where dozens of local residents were celebrating a birthday party in the Hunter Valley wine region" <Sigh!!> hunkers down and trys to emulate a tortoise Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 I`t been pointed out by several people on this forum,that accidents continue to occur, over and over, for the same reasons, since flying began..If we accept that as being correct, then it appears, there is no way to improve the situation!.If on the other hand, we don`t accept that is correct!. What is the solution?... Is there a solution?Frank. Yes there is; in Victoria we are getting close to the point where we may be able to celebrate 50 years Fatality free in speedway racing which once was a deadly as flying. It's also being claimed that no one has died in Formula One racing since Ayrton Senna, which is a long time ago. The secret is in LOGICAL regulations, and a strong Administration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 In the case of formula one a very high cost in the design.. A "Culture of Safety" might seem a bit intangible but that is something like what we want. I don't know how you get it. One pilot I knew was one of the most safety conscious people ever as far as I could tell. I flew with him quite often in his Twin Commanche . Never had a moments anxiety. He flew the plane into the side of a mountain in cloud years later. The last person I would have thought would do that, but I wasn't there to know exactly what happened. There are some who think that IF is a piece of cake and anyone knows where up and down are. (even in cloud??) There are some who leave fuel caps off. Some who don't double check aircraft on finals. I even had a Garude B707 pull onto the runway at Sydney KS when instructed to hold short, when I was at about 200 feet on final.. I had an inkling at Bindook and said to the crew" that I reckon this bloke is going to get in my way somehow" when I heard him on the RT Spanners left on engines. Had that at Lae. For some reason I opened the window fully and got my head right out and saw it there. Some of this must be luck. but expect the unexpected. Take little for granted. If there 's doubt check it again.. People take off with gust locks still engaged. Usually spectacularly fatal.. But you have to miss a few checks to get in that situation. . Not every person makes a good car driver and probably less make good pilots. A good pilot MUST be a safe pilot or he/she isn't good for long. The "ACE of the BASE" might not last the distance. A good pilot is one who doesn't get into situations where he/she has to be an exceptional pilot to get out of. GA accidents are happening more than in the past? It has to be per hour or per sector to get a valid comparison. Instructors carry a fair responsibility here but so do do those who approve the sylabus and everyone influencing it as well. Nev 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Bureaucracy rules!, remove all safety equipment to reach the wing-loading goal, to be able to register as 10-xxxx. No brakes or suspension no instruments, and a two lts plastic container for the fuel, safety take the rear seat to comply with the RULES. spacesailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storchy neil Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 The secret is in LOGICAL regulations, and a strong Administration. when that happens ? we will have to have a bex === and a lay down=== need an oxagen mask ===and I will give up smoking ? neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyflyer Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 I think Australian over regulation has given us a popular culture of ignoring the BS. This, along with a strong streak of larrikinism ends up with a lot of the sensible rules being broken or bent as well. We are all told about the dangers of flying in marginal conditions but many, many still push the boundaries. It's in the nature of many Australians and I'm blowed if I know how we can change that in a hurry. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roundsounds Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 The solution is education and to develop the right culture, not by introducing more and more regulations. RAAus has a huge collection of incident reports, yet I don't see any published overall analysis of these reports regarding common causes or contributing factors. An analysis of the incidents would easily identify any common threads, the organisation then develops suitable training packages to address these causes or adopts those of say the FAA. The training might be in he form of presentations at safety forums, online videos, articles for inclusion in Sport Pilot or discussions at flight review time. All material should be made accessible in an online library via the website for past, current and future generations of pilots as reference material. By ongoing analysis of incident report data the effectiveness of the training can be measured and tweaked as needed. Members are already trying to do their own analysis by continually seeking the publication of information about incidents. RAAus and its members would be in a better place with this proactive approach rather than "hunkering down and emulating a tortoise" 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Borgelt Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 I think Australian over regulation has given us a popular culture of ignoring the BS. This, along with a strong streak of larrikinism ends up with a lot of the sensible rules being broken or bent as well. We are all told about the dangers of flying in marginal conditions but many, many still push the boundaries. It's in the nature of many Australians and I'm blowed if I know how we can change that in a hurry. The reason Australia has over regulation is simple : the people being regulated like it that way. If CASA were to completely abolish all CASA requirements on recreational aviation tomorrow the screams would be heard in London and the loudest would come from the GFA, SAAA, RAAus etc.(think of all those people getting their jollies from writing and administering rules) Followed by a good proportion of their memberships. Why do people like over regulation? Also simple. They don't have to think and can blame someone else if things go wrong "it wasn't my fault, I followed all the rules". The not having to think bit is the problem. The main rules that really need to be known in aviation are Newtonian gravitation and the same gentleman's Third Law of Motion. I also like the ones in Steven Coonts's "The Cannibal Queen". "never fly into anything you can't see through" and "the airplane holds 3 hours fuel - I land after 2 hours". BTW " The Cannibal Queen" is recommended reading. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roundsounds Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Why do people like over regulation? Also simple. They don't have to think and can blame someone else if things go wrong "it wasn't my fault, I followed all the rules". The not having to think bit is the problem. Totally agree, we only need 1 rule: don't crash or annoy the general public. How that rule is obeyed is up to those committing aviation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 Totally agree, we only need 1 rule: don't crash or annoy the general public.How that rule is obeyed is up to those committing aviation. That was tried by an Australian Grand Prix official in Adelaide where a race track had been set up in a shopping centre car park with a safety fence constructed of perforated orange plastic. He allowed a complete cross section of cars to start in addition to circuit racing cars, including speedway cars which were totally unsuited to the tight corners. One went through the plastic and hit a child. The claim started at around $2 million. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted May 24, 2015 Author Share Posted May 24, 2015 Yes there is; in Victoria we are getting close to the point where we may be able to celebrate 50 years Fatality free in speedway racing which once was a deadly as flying. The secret is in LOGICAL regulations, and a strong Administration I want to make it clear that anything I`ve said in the past or will continue to say in future, is only about RA-Aus registered aircraft and pilots! The way I see it! Speedway racing is completely different to flying. With speedway racing, all the participants are in one place, at a given time, so, controlling the event is possible....Flying doesn`t only occur from a single venue, such as a fly-in, where there can be control of what occurs, it takes place from multiple locations, at any time, between sunrise to sunset, therefore, it`s the pilot who controls what occurs, in that situation. Obtaining an RA-Aus pilot certificate requires, being trained by an RA-Aus approved flying instructor at an RA-Aus approved flying school. Once a student obtains their pilot certificate, the expectation is that they know what is required of them and they are competent enough to fly safely. "The secret is in LOGICAL regulations, and a strong Administration" How is any logical or any other kind of regulation, going to have any influence on the individual who chooses not to apply it? Frank. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 There is a limit to what you can extract "how it is done" from one place and apply it to another. I suggest U/L flying and homebuilt isn't understood by a lot of people who might want it to operate to an RPT or Airline standard or GA. . The element of self responsibility is essential. The individual has to accept this. Rebels will corrupt ant structure if they try hard enough. I've seen some shocking condition GA aircraft. Probably done for mates. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 I want to make it clear that anything I`ve said in the past or will continue to say in future, is only about RA-Aus registered aircraft and pilots!The way I see it! Speedway racing is completely different to flying. With speedway racing, all the participants are in one place, at a given time, so, controlling the event is possible....Flying doesn't only occur from a single venue, such as a fly-in, where there can be control of what occurs, it takes place from multiple locations, at any time, between sunrise to sunset, therefore, it`s the pilot who controls what occurs, in that situation. \There was an attitude a few posts ago that flying is dangerous so you should expect a few casualties. I was giving you an example from another sport, where that attitude was not tolerated, and people solved the problem. There's no point in picking the differences between the sports and saying "well that part doesn't apply to us" so we'll ignore all the things they did to succeed. Sure, people congregate at race tracks, where RA aviation can be a solo sport, but a lot goes on between meetings. For example, volunteers check every car regularly while it is being built, and before each season starts at the builder's home. On race day, while the checks are thorough, cars are expected to be presented with no faults. That system would not allow a primary control fastened with either no locking nut or a nyloc nut instead of mechanical locking, it would not allow design or building faults affecting primary safety. RAA has no similar structure. Behaviour is monitored and controlled by volunteers whenever activitiy occurs. RAA has no similar compliance and enforcement structure. With the present disastrous rate of fatalities, solving the problem is what matters, and it's time people stopped being evasive and faced up to some of the obvious causes. Obtaining an RA-Aus pilot certificate requires, being trained by an RA-Aus approved flying instructor at an RA-Aus approved flying school. Once a student obtains their pilot certificate, the expectation is that they know what is required of them and they are competent enough to fly safely. It's been a long time since those standards were replaced in our community. There is no place for an "expectation" in training for critical safety areas, because the people doing the training are now putting themselves at financial risk. If they want to continue to do that, well fine, but if something goes wrong, their house is likely to be on the line. I've raised several times, that Certificate IV in training is required by most companies to ensure that the trainer is qualify to judge whether the trainee has absorbed what he has been trained to do, and is carrying it out. RAA doesn't require that, and that is a risk When people are getting themselves into stalls in perfectly good aircraft, falling victim to weather and so on, eventually some relatives are going to look at recovering cost. There are plenty of opportunities to improve the present situation. "The secret is in LOGICAL regulations, and a strong Administration"[/Quote] How is any logical or any other kind of regulation, going to have any influence on the individual who chooses not to apply it? A logical regulation is one which is based on hard evidence. For example, flying at a minimum height of 500 feet. If we do that, we may be exposed to swr lines, tree stags or other unexpected obstructions, for just part of each takeoff and landing, which will usually be at airfield where these areas are clean anyway. At all other times, except perhaps in mountainous country, we will be safely clear of these things which have resulted in the death of hundreds of pilots over the years. That's a logical regulation. There are people who choose not to apply it; I recall one of the louder examples on this site, being caught out at a beach beat up by his mate who posted the video. Compliance and enforcement takes care of most of those people, but is not being done today. An illogical regulation is one which is virtually impossible to comply with. People become cycnical and ignore it. These regulations are better modified or replaced by something which can be used to prevent fatalities and injuries. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted May 24, 2015 Author Share Posted May 24, 2015 Turbo, you may not believe how much I wish you could stop the accidents occurring..... Good luck, you will need it! Frank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 There is no need to complicate things. Regardless of what is done, there will always be road fatalities and aviation fatalities. Sure the numbers can be reduced by education and training but humans being humans by nature. There will never be a zero fatality rate. We are kidding ourselves if we think that there can be a zero fatality rate. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 Training: When I took my car licence test I did Not have to know the weight, the gear ratio or tyre pressure of a B-double, RAA training, requires to know all the Laws, the fuel capacity & range (with reserves) the weight & balance and baggage allowance of GA aircraft of more than the allowed two seats. The enforcement of the wing loading rule for aircraft that have been flying Safely, that now have to reduce weight making them less safe is . I wont say it in public. My aircraft is not the only Hummel Bird affected, Are the Gods that rule us going to Deregister aircraft?, like the GA owner/operator debacle. spacesailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffreywh Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 For a start we have to stop using the word "accident" There are no "accidents" .........Only incidents with negative outcomes..Accident implies that no-one is, or can be help responsible........ Someone is always at fault.....Somewhere , Somehow. A regulation has been ignored or taken too lightly or someone is just being stupid, flying too low, in cloud, poor weather check, insufficient fuel, badly maintained aircraft, there is a cause somewhere. And as long as your arse points downwards somebody will be taking extra risks. Occasionally that type of person will get caught out and pay the price. I admit it's a lot to pay for a "bit of a lark "................... a little disobedience goes a long way and echoes for a long time. So stop expecting nil fatalities, not going to happen.... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 In aviation, there was always accidents and incidents and a definition for each. I concur somewhat with your comments but those definitions are probably still there and are reportable by law. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 I think a lot of those accidents we read about could have been avoided. Usually when there is an incident someone pipes up and says something along the lines of "he was an accident waiting to happen" If we know of someone who runs unacceptable risks we should speak up. I know it may be hard and it can cause a lot of bad feeling. Been there, done that and that pilot is now a safer pilot. The silly thing is he was a good pilot, had good skills, but poor decision making. One GA pilot who I always said was a cowboy, also a good pilot with poor decision making skills, ended up killing a paying passenger when he didn'y have a commercial licence. Even CASA knew what he was doing, but sat on their hands. We can make a difference, by speaking out and also by setting a good example. When we don't set a good example it can come back and haunt us. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 One very well known road in the NT, had for many years, NO speed limit and NO deaths. The Gods who rule us put in a speed limit & six died in one year. I have to removed the Training wheel from the front of my HB, (to reduce wing loading) & learn to fly a Very short coupled (three mtr) tail-dragger!. spacesailor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff13 Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 One very well known road in the NT, had for many years, NO speed limit and NO deaths. spacesailor Except for the Australian version of Cannonball. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 One very well known road in the NT, had for many years, NO speed limit and NO deaths. The Gods who rule us put in a speed limit & six died in one year.I have to removed the Training wheel from the front of my HB, (to reduce wing loading) & learn to fly a Very short coupled (three mtr) tail-dragger!. spacesailor The facts about the NT road toll in the Minister for Transports own words... http://www.alicespringsnews.com.au/2014/01/31/open-speed-limit-starts-tomorrow/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Hi Winsor68. I have read your link, and make no comment except the paragraph near the end stating "more deaths", But the fact is More died with the lower speed limit than the previous open road policy . spacesailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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