Jab 230 Accident South Grafton

[Happyflyer]

Luckily my aircraft has something called an air speed indicator to overcome this phenomenon.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Luckily my aircraft has something called an air speed indicator to overcome this phenomenon.

True true true

BUT

 

In general we don't spend a lot of time at low level and for most of us we need to be consciously aware that our visual cues of the ground will automatically override if allowed, especially at low level and especially with any decent amount of wind. I know I have mentioned it heaps and heaps of time but I really think LL training should be strongly encouraged, I still haven't completed my LL training but the little that I have done has really opened my eyes to just how much our outside picture can dictate our actions overriding otherwise good piloting skills and turning a good balanced pilot into one who pins the skid ball to the edge.

 

IMO a good basic understanding (with practical experience) of low level ops would be extremely beneficial for the majority of us. Actually if we look at most low level stall spin accidents I wonder how many of them are caused by a pilot (generally under pressure) ignoring basic things (speed-balance) and taking their cues from what the ground is doing? Simply calling those sort of prangs human factors doesn't really help us stop them. (I am not saying this prang was a stall spin one, I am just generalising like one does when it is time to go to sleep!)

 

Disclaimer: I am definitely not saying reckless or illegal low flying is a good idea and I disagree with those that think teaching LL will encourage more LL 'hoons' IMO that is a bit like saying taking advanced driving training in a car will increase the chances of you becoming a wild driver?!

 

 

[cooperplace]

Luckily my aircraft has something called an air speed indicator to overcome this phenomenon.

how many among us have been guilty of taking our eye off it for a second or two, and then spotting that airspeed is dangerously low? My instructor drilled into me, especially at times like turning base to final: Airspeed! ball in the centre!

for which I'm grateful.

 

 

[Aldo]

In general we don't spend a lot of time at low level

SDQDI

 

I don't disagree with your push for LL training but what we are talking about here is a take off, upwind, downwind or crosswind the same principals apply. Accelerate down the runway maintain the centre line, achieve rotate speed, lift off, checks - speed increasing, positive rate of climb (stay in ground effect if need be until speed increases sufficiently to achieve positive rate of climb), flaps away as required, MP, RPM as required, climb to 500 AGL before any turning. Ground references slipping or skidding by shouldn't come into it.

 

Aldo

 

 

[SDQDI]

You are right Aldo, and the majority of times that is what we do but it doesn't take much for us to slip up especially if under a little extra mental load.

 

 

[cooperplace]

SDQDIflaps away as required, MP, RPM as required,

 

Aldo

what's MP?

 

 

[Mick]

what's MP?

Manifold Pressure, critical if you have an in flight adjustable prop.

 

 

[M61A1]

SDQDII don't disagree with your push for LL training but what we are talking about here is a take off, upwind, downwind or crosswind the same principals apply. Accelerate down the runway maintain the centre line, achieve rotate speed, lift off, checks - speed increasing, positive rate of climb (stay in ground effect if need be until speed increases sufficiently to achieve positive rate of climb), flaps away as required, MP, RPM as required, climb to 500 AGL before any turning. Ground references slipping or skidding by shouldn't come into it.

 

Aldo

Yes...that's how it SHOULD work, it is apparent that sometimes we read about people, that, for whatever reason may not have done it that way.

 

 

[Aldo]

You are right Aldo, and the majority of times that is what we do but it doesn't take much for us to slip up especially if under a little extra mental load.

SDQI

 

Thanks, I suspect in this case (as prop appeared to be developing full power) they may not have achieved positive rate of climb and been descending it is very difficult when not climbing and close to the ground to point the nose back at the ground to get the airspeed required, but this is what you must do or you will be back there anyway.

 

Aldo

 

 

[facthunter]

I think from what I'm reading here there is a need for low level training and some coverage of downwind take offs. I can't believe it's not in the training syllabus. Nev

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

... I really think LL training should be strongly encouraged, I still haven't completed my LL training but the little that I have done has really opened my eyes to just how much our outside picture can dictate our actions overriding otherwise good piloting skills...

OK SD, you've convinced me. Our basic training included a bit about selecting a place to land if things go quiet. That was years ago and I'm more than rusty in that area. Perhaps it's time to retrain in LL as part of a refresher course in how to safely get into a strange paddock with little or no power.

If our Club had a decent President he'd be organising that ASAP!

 

 

[facthunter]

Retrain in LL ? When were you trained? I used to do it in RAAus but when the endorsement LL came out I wished it to be listed included on my Cert with the instructor rating I had on the basis of my log book experience/qualifications and that I had taught it as an instructor in GA & RAAus. Nup!! Not unless you are mustering or such. I contend it's essential for ALL to do it as part of normal training with extra if required for mustering standard. Nev

 

 

[SDQDI]

Spot on Nev.

 

It is one endorsement that should be strongly encouraged. I am lucky inasmuch as I live on a property so I can fulfill the 'genuine reason' part but I think it is something that should be available to all pilots. As cliched as it is we all do some LL flight at least twice per flight and not being aloud to learn skills about it is foolish IMO

 

 

[facthunter]

Well If "they" profess interest in real safety why don't WE push for it, and get something done. I've been ratting on for over 10 years on this one, an we still keep seeing evidence of the need for it, all the time. It's in the GA syllabus and "U/L's" are more susceptible and exposed. Nev

 

 

[M61A1]

OK SD, you've convinced me. Our basic training included a bit about selecting a place to land if things go quiet. That was years ago and I'm more than rusty in that area. Perhaps it's time to retrain in LL as part of a refresher course in how to safely get into a strange paddock with little or no power.If our Club had a decent President he'd be organising that ASAP!

I can put you onto at least two instructors up here that do LL, just because you can't get the endorsement, doesn't mean you can't do some training if you desire.

 

Spot on Nev.As cliched as it is we all do some LL flight at least twice per flight and not being aloud to learn skills about it is foolish IMO

It may be cliché, but it's not really accurate. How often have you heard management reminding people not to be turning below 500'? (approach & departure).

I can clearly remember the first time I was asked to do a steep turn at LL, I was not comfortable at all.

 

 

[facthunter]

No but you may choose to do a precautionary for an outlanding or even a forced landing where it might save you life to be able to do a quick turn at low level, downwind take off or a go around at some place that's a bit tricky, or have a partial engine failure, have turbulence/windshear late on final etc. Nev

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

The AUF (now RAA) aero club I was with had an old GA mustering pilot as instructor. He took his students through all the mustering, low level stuff in the club's Lightwing because most of them were country lads who would end up either mustering, fence & bore checking on the family property or would end up being pressured to do so by employers or mates. His thinking - better they had a brief lesson in what can go wrong, than try to learn "on the job", because even if he told them not to do it - they would. I did a refresher with him. My C152 did muster until CASA changed the rules - if you muster on a property, not your own, then you must have a CPL & mustering endo. So can't stray over the fence and muster Uncle's place too.

 

The John Freeman "Flight at Lower Levels" books (at least 2 I have on the shelves - and Clear Prop has at least one volume) are well worth a read.

 

 

[M61A1]

No but you may choose to do a precautionary for an outlanding or even a forced landing where it might save you life to be able to do a quick turn at low level, downwind take off or a go around at some place that's a bit tricky, or have a partial engine failure, have turbulence/windshear late on final etc. Nev

I agree, there are plenty of instances where it might just save you, but, it would appear they don't want you to learn how to do it.

 

 

[SSCBD]

Luckily my aircraft has something called an air speed indicator to overcome this phenomenon.

Yep - Watch the airspeed indicator unwind fast when hit with a gust up the rear. Has everyone one forgot to fly attitude.

 

 

[kasper]

The AUF (now RAA) aero club I was with had an old GA mustering pilot as instructor. He took his students through all the mustering, low level stuff in the club's Lightwing because most of them were country lads who would end up either mustering, fence & bore checking on the family property or would end up being pressured to do so by employers or mates. His thinking - better they had a brief lesson in what can go wrong, than try to learn "on the job", because even if he told them not to do it - they would. I did a refresher with him. My C152 did muster until CASA changed the rules - if you muster on a property, not your own, then you must have a CPL & mustering endo. So can't stray over the fence and muster Uncle's place too. The John Freeman "Flight at Lower Levels" books (at least 2 I have on the shelves - and Clear Prop has at least one volume) are well worth a read.

Exactly the same reason three of the three of us as instructors who flew GA Aerobatics and formation used to bring aerobatic aircraft across to weekend BBQ flyins and take students up to show them what it all can look like if you get it wrong or try and play silly buggers. And exactly why when instructing on drifters I used to demo steep descending turns and some of the other likely flying maneuvers they were going to do when my back was turned and/or they went back out west.

Back in the 'bad old days' of AUF us instructors used to have a fair idea of what was going on west of the great divide ... and if you were the double whammy of also being an L2 (as all three of us were) what do you do when a drifter comes into your workshop for maintenance and its (a) not registered and (b) fitted with shotguns "for cattle mustering"???

 

 

[facthunter]

AND be aware of the aircraft's performance. Is it making the expected climb gradient? No? why not. Check power, attitude, configuration, and your airspeed but again if you are near the ground with a tailwind you "feel" as though you are going fast. If you are turning you think you are slipping or skidding if you look outside. This is why you do Low Level training and if you just watch your airspeed and chase it you might have a really bad day. Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

I did Low level for my gA licence years ago and that training has stood me in good stead. Watch the ball and ASI whenever near the ground, the apparent motion can really get you fooled otherwise.

 

As for downwind takeoffs the wind gradient can be a bad surprise.

 

I once took off from Agnes waters to the NE, which is normally downwind, but the sock was hanging limp and there are hills to the SW. As soon as I got to the top of the trees the ASI started down, so did my nose and I went over the creek at about 400', which was a new experience. There was still a Southeaster, but only above the treex.

 

 

[SSCBD]

Exactly the same reason three of the three of us as instructors who flew GA Aerobatics and formation used to bring aerobatic aircraft across to weekend BBQ flyins and take students up to show them what it all can look like if you get it wrong or try and play silly buggers. And exactly why when instructing on drifters I used to demo steep descending turns and some of the other likely flying maneuvers they were going to do when my back was turned and/or they went back out west.Back in the 'bad old days' of AUF us instructors used to have a fair idea of what was going on west of the great divide ... and if you were the double whammy of also being an L2 (as all three of us were) what do you do when a drifter comes into your workshop for maintenance and its (a) not registered and (b) fitted with shotguns "for cattle mustering"???

Oh yes back then - but at least they had the bailing wire to hold the shotgun to the airframe and the string to pull the trigger. - So True ! The good old days.

Saw this on a few non-drifter aircraft as well.

 

 

[quentas]

I've seen worse jab crashes that had been rebuilt. Very happy the occupants are ok.

 

 

[cooperplace]

Manifold Pressure, critical if you have an in flight adjustable prop.

ah yes, one less thing to worry about in the Jab.