VFR>>IMC • Immediate 180?

[Garfly]

As a VFR only pilot, I've long had doubts about the common advice about chucking an immediate U-ey to escape inadvertent IMC.  Of course, every situation's going to be different but I've wondered if the better bet might sometimes be to avoid any ambitious manoeuvring; limiting excursions to a gentle climb or descent [depending] wings-level on the AH - at least until I'd settled the nerves and thought the situation through (or, touch aluminium, regained the natural horizon).  

It's never happened so I don't really know what it'd be like or what I'd do in the moment.  Suffice to say I found this new Avweb article useful for my thinking on the subject.

 

 

https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/accidents-ntsb/accident-probe-course-reversal-in-imc/

 

VFR Into IMC: Course Reversals

According to the FAA’s Flight Training Handbook (FAA-H-8083-3B), “The first steps necessary for surviving an encounter with IMC by a VFR pilot are as follows:

• Recognition and acceptance of the seriousness of the situation and the need for immediate remedial action;
• Maintaining control of the airplane; and
• Obtaining the appropriate assistance in getting the airplane safely on the ground.

When performing a turn after inadvertently encountering IMC, the IFH tells us, “A shallow bank takes very little vertical lift from the wings resulting in little if any deviation in altitude. It may be helpful to turn a few degrees and then return to level flight if a large change in heading must be made. Repeat the process until the desired heading is reached. This process may relieve the progressive overbanking that often results from prolonged turns.”

[skippydiesel]

Sound advice however in an an aircraft not fitted with an AH I would speculate that the only instrument that might be of assistance, in such a situation (incremental course changes to achieve a course reversal) would be the good old "whisky" compass. Not an easy instrument to guide the pilot in VMC.

 

There is little point in wishing for a higher capability, during such an event, however the fitting of a basic  automatic pilot/wigs leveler or better, must shortly be at the top of the list for getting the hapless pilot out of trouble in such a situation.

[Bosi72]

 >in an an aircraft not fitted with an AH I would 

>speculate that the only instrument that might be of

>assistance,

 

You can use ASI instead of AH in emergency. 

 

An hour under the hood with an instructor, or a Sim session helps.

 

Regardless, you shouldn't be there in the first place.

[Thruster88]

If you enter cloud without an Artificial Horizon the only thing that will work is remove hands and feet from controls and close throttle. The most disliked persons in aviation has shown how aircraft fly perfectly with no pilot input.

 

The compass will not save you.

 

[Old Koreelah]

That “whisky compass” trick sounds like a second last resort for those of us without AH or any instrument training.

(Letting go all controls sounds sensible if you were trimmed properly.)

I have a GoPro mount on my canopy. Next time I go flying I’ll point it at the compass and do some turns to see how reliable it might be if suddenly enclosed in soup. 

 

[kgwilson]

I flew in to IMC deliberately many years ago & did write a full story about it but here is a summary.

 

I went down to stay VFR through a hole in the cloud when it thickened.

 

About 1000 AGL and I was above a Dairy farm with nowhere to land & surrounded by hills, the tops of which were in the cloud. I was unable to find the hole or it had closed up/moved on whatever. There was absolutely nowhere to land so I went up. I was flying an IFR equipped Cherokee Archer 2 but was only VFR trained. I remembered my 5.5 hours under the hood & told myself in my head "believe the instruments" over and over again. So set the heading, full power and best climb. Head down and scanning the instruments constantly the aircraft kept wanting to turn left (it didn't really that was me) so I had to constantly put right input into the yoke. I popped out into the bright morning sunshine at a bit over 9,000 feet.

 

That was only a part of the ordeal but it took about 20 minutes and felt like an hour.. In my predicament I had no choice. I had choices prior to that but didn't take the right one (turn back).

 

Time spend under the hood is absolutely invaluable and certainly saved my life and of my 2 passengers. The AH was the most important instrument, then turn & bank, DI or compass, ASI and the rest after that. There was an 8,300 foot mountain where I was heading but I was quite some distance from it so that was not a problem. Once in the clear I called CH-CH control & they were brilliant.

[turboplanner]

28 minutes ago, Old Koreelah said:

That “whisky compass” trick sounds like a second last resort for those of us without AH or any instrument training.

(Letting go all controls sounds sensible if you were trimmed properly.)

I have a GoPro mount on my canopy. Next time I go flying I’ll point it at the compass and do some turns to see how reliable it might be if suddenly enclosed in soup. 

 

For a PPL you have 2 - 3 hours under the hood to learn how to rely on instruments and completely disregard what your body is telling you, because the fluid in your eardrums is pushed around by gravity in the turn, so you are turning but your body is telling you, you're straight and level, so you bank to make your turn when you are already at 30 degrees and you're into a spiral dive, and from there your senses won't help you recover.

At the end of my under-hood training I was getting very clever, listening to the instructor calling base etc, eyes glued to the four instruments, and conducting perfect turns. I was quite confident I could take it all the way to the roundout.

I had a very good instructor; he pulled the hood off me about halfway down final, I zoomed up to 500 feet and went off line, pulled the throttle off and sank too much,WOT and one wing down to climb again, finally managed a rough round out and very ordinary landing. Good lesson about how little control I really had.That wasn't worth a certificate, but showed me there was no short cut to an  IFR rating. 

You don't have those instruments, but today's flight rules which require a minimum forward distance from cloud give you plenty of time to make a VFR turnaround, and that's way better than struggling out in marginal conditions and perhaps losing control, or your sense of direction to lower ground.

Prior to that the primary regulation was a minimum distance standard to cloud above you. Where that fell short was when the weather pattern was misty and the cloud was solid above you. You were already in "cloud" but you could see a couple of Nm ahead but you were really flying into the gradient, and if you didn't turn around fast enough you were in cloud. I've asked several times over the years for exerienced pilots to tell us what the Net Forecast would be for that condition or how to identify it, but there has never been an answer, so it's clearly a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[facthunter]

Haven't read anything that grabs me so far. An autopilot doesn't know when it's in cloud. so if you have one do a slow rate 180 turn and get back out. Make sure there's no high ground to kill you .The A/H replaces the actual horizon and is your primary attitude reference, when the real one isn't visible.. IF you don't have one, Limited panel is ASI , Altimeter, RATE Turn indicator and skid ball and Magnetic compass .You MUST have some thing that's GYRO stabilised.   It's indispensable  You'd also have to be in recent practice and it's tiring in the real situation especially if the air has some "bumps" in it. You have to ignore your seat of the pants feelings completely or you are doomed.. Nev

[Garfly]

Well, I've read several things here that have grabbed me already. Yes, for sure, an autopilot - at least a wing leveler - is the ant's pants when it comes to inadvertent IMC. But few have the option of letting George do it in RAAus.  But I'm glad to see that the official advice seems to have drifted away from "do an immediate 180 and go back whence you came" to keep the wings level and if you need to change heading do it in baby steps.  This seems to me (with admittedly not much to go on) to make more sense.  

But it's also very important that stories like kgwilson's (above) get told; people who've found themselves (to their shock and surprise) in sudden white-out and have lived to tell the tale - just by taking things calmly and methodically - even for a 20 minute stretch, if necessary.

While an effective deterrent, the  '178 Seconds to Live" idea being pounded into pilots' heads (along with  "you should never be there in the first place" ) has the problem that it encourages a panic/defeatism response if and when it does happen - inadvertently.  

[Yenn]

I don't have any instruments for IFR. I have ASI, compass and the ball and of these for me the most important is the ball. Keep it centred, keep the airspeed in acceptable range and do everything gently. I have no idea how I would do in an emergency, but I think the most important thing would be as Corporal Jones said "Don't panic"

[MattP]

The reason for the u-turn is because the weather behind you is a known quantity and will be better than that in front of you. Proceeding into IMC further will likely put you in further deteriorating conditions and without the situational awareness or equipment to deal with it. Clouds can have various unpleasant things such as rock, electricity, ice, hail, fast moving aluminum in them.

 

Remember the difference between you and an aircraft / pilot which are IFR rated going into the same cloud (other than the regs) is that the latter has the deck stacked in their favour (cloud bases, LSAT, ATC contact and weather updates, precision navigation, icing levels, a way to get down safely, backup systems), you have none or little of that in an RA aircraft.

 

The situation is also not likely to be you encountering a solid wall of cloud or simply a fluffy cumulus in an otherwise blue sky, its likely going to be either a sucker hole you got yourself into (kgwilson's example) or a gradual loss of VMC conditions into deteriorating weather.

 

The idea you should never have gotten there in the first place holds true, and is the reason why they teach that type of decision making. As private / rec pilots we can always just can it and stay at home, we never HAVE to make a flight. I guess the teach or not will have the same debate levels as the spin training debate.

 

IFR isn't hard, anyone can do it with the right training, and its a perishable skill, hence the recency requirements. In real IMC adding in the bumps / sensations it takes some getting used to. It can add a dimension of safety to your flying as well not having to go under the crud and in the bumps. It isn't a ticket to ignore the weather, actually the opposite and can make the go/no-go decision harder to make. 

 

I would not fancy needing to all of a sudden have to rely on Chuck Yeager level skills on a partial panel (which is what you'll be on if you don't have the right instruments) to save your life. The 180 described here is an emergency maneuver, but doesn't need to be executed at 60 degrees of bank and 2G. I guess they don't train it to ensure pilots of Rec aircraft don't push it at all.

 

There is also the variable of how your aircraft behaves in various axis stability wise and how that translates to hands off control. Not a great time to work out the great roll response you love the feel of will mean a roll off into a spiral if left in IMC. 

 

Autopilot would be a good idea if you have it, just level the wings, or press the level button if its a relatively new one, and then hdg mode and spin that bug around. George will fly it better than you will anyhow. Damn robots don't panic.

 

If you do want to experience it for yourself, the great thing is you can, just find an instructor in the GA world and get some IMC time. Remember VFR-IMC this also has gotten experienced instrument pilots, so its not something to muck around with.

 

[Bosi72]

3 hours ago, MattP said:

The 180 described here is an emergency maneuver, but doesn't need to be executed at 60 degrees of bank and 2G..

IFR turns are rate 1 (3deg per sec), or  25deg bank, whichever requires less bank. 

 

Divide airspeed by 10, add 7, will give you the angle of bank for rate 1 turn.

[facthunter]

Without having a visual horizon or artificial one you can't keep an accurate angle of bank OR a reference Pitch angle. Larger rate manouvers make IFR flying much more difficult. . Be gentle. In my youth I've done spin recoveries under the hood. THAT was THEN. The A/H topples if it's not caged on the old stuff. leaving only the turn needle. Don't kid yourself it's easy and that EVERYONE knows where DOWN is.. No simulator is like the real thing but some are close with full motion. . Nev

[MattP]

Yep gentle is the key, but without some reference the odds aren't great.  Trying to do division at the same time you're trying to get out of inadvertent imc probably would not be the best either. 

 

At the end of the day should you put yourself in that situation, gentle turn to a roughly reciprocal heading and maintaining altitude / airspeed is what you're trying to do. It doesn't need to be exact in either the heading you end up on or the rate. 

 

Just don't rip it into a steep turn or think it might be a good time to try out your ifr skills for a while.  

[facthunter]

You still have to be aware where the hills are. If you manage to get clear and are on top get in touch with Control who often can aid you . Maintaining control of the plane is everything. A Dark night makes it even more a problem if you don't have a  few lights spread over a distance to give you an idea of the lay of the land.  Nev

[RFguy]

My first introduction to IMC flying  (under instruction) we deliberately flew into a large cloud (over featureless terrain).

 

The first take away was that depth and distance perception close to the cloud (still in VMC) is flawed.

I thought the cloud in front was a minute's flying away! And it was in reality 10 seconds away . suddenly I was in it.

 

I proceeded to put a turn in on compass glance, and a spiral developed and I saw it developing and caught it- (it's a really obvious instrument signature) 

But that was a  huge- lesson- I could see now how people die in spiral dives in IMC.

That little demonstration to myself of the spiral developing was the single best lesson.

 

Then did repeated  flying into back into IMC in  and outand flew comfortably on the instruments in and out, put in turns etc.  

GOT to stay HYPER RATIONAL and beleive your instruments and nothing else.

I have not done any training in IMC with reduced instruments. Nor any spin recovery in IMC Nev- Holy f**k !!!

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by RFguy

[turboplanner]

53 minutes ago, RFguy said:

My first introduction to IMC flying  (under instruction) we deliberately flew into a large cloud (over featureless terrain).

The first take away was that depth and distance perception close to the cloud (still in VMC) is flawed.

I thought the cloud in front was a minute's flying away! And it was in reality 10 seconds away . suddenly I was in it.

 

Having experienced that, would you agree that the longer perspective of the 5km and 8 km in the VFRG is an easier way to judge? 

[Garfly]

1 hour ago, RFguy said:

I proceeded to put a turn in on compass glance, and a spiral developed and I saw it developing and caught it- (it's a really obvious instrument signature)  But that was a  huge- lesson- I could see now how people die in spiral dives in IMC.

Glen, a great story, sounds like a really useful exercise for all VFR pilots. Can you unpack it a bit more?  Like why would you go straight to the compass? (given its infamous slowness to react ... maybe it was the card type, not a whiskey one.) Was that part of the planned exercise? Did you have an AH and DI?  Did you try to just keep the wings level to start with - before attempting to turn - or was an immediate turn also part of the training? Also, please say more about that 'obvious instrument signature' thing.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by Garfly

[RFguy]

Turbs. 5km. I dunno.  Other parts of training were  flying between clouds, and flying up and down through holes in the cloud - and positively identifying what was and what wasnt VNC  - the 1500m clear of cloud requires experience to make an accurate judgement.  My initial estimates of a hole size, which needs to be 2x 1500m radius  to be VMC (about 2 x cowra strips) , were much too optimistic  ! 

But is 5km or 8km easier to judge. Not without experience, and  exercise -  try and guess it (guess the distance) and then measure it !!! That's what we went and did. 

 

Garfly. Yes planned exercise.

The initial work was just to evaluate what I would do entering IMC unexpectidely. Cloud base was 4000' above ground , a big isolated puffy blob . No rocks.  No turb inside it . Not a wall of weather.

Getting the taste of it -

First go was a turn after flying for 10  seconds into it . My initial reaction was to look at the (stable) compass (as I have read other do ) as I entered the cloud some 50 seconds earlier than I expected.

I had full instruments- AH, DI  but the signature of course, fast increasing airspeed, bank angle likely increasing, loss of altitude... .  the spiral developing is pretty obvious.

That's the ' ahhhhh !' moment. This is how people die ! 

 Looking out the window for flying is futile.  Back throttle off, roll wings flat on AH. pick up the nose a bit to halt loss of altitude which also pulls speed back - sorted.

 

Yes , flying IMC non instruments -  attempts to keep wings level by 'sense' are just  futile.  Scan - scan scan scan those instruments ! It only takes a few seconds for a spiral to go to Vne  ...

I think flying by instruments  is a cinch , At least in benign conditions with no additional activities (like navigation !) .

but the scan feedback loop of your eyes brain body needs to be a well oiled machine.  . 

Navigation, bad weather, talking with ATC, other planes, doing flying logs etc all requires additional care from my in-experienced POV.

Add some complex task to the hand flying in IMC and I suspect the cognitive load will increase. 

 

anyway that's my ONE CENT worth form me, a low hours RA pilot- but I've had the full treatment of training I feel.

 

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by RFguy

[aro]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

Having experienced that, would you agree that the longer perspective of the 5km and 8 km in the VFRG is an easier way to judge?

5km and 8km is visibility, not distance from cloud.

 

At 3000' distance to the horizon is about 100km, so 5km visibility is very poor. Technically VMC, but it wouldn't feel like it.

[RFguy]

5km/8km visibility - that I think would depend on the features on the ground . and features on the horizon .... A bit of haze dust in the air I find radically changes perceptions. 

Aro I think I can tell 5km or 50km , but not much vernier in between. 

If it is a region that I know well - well, I can provide a GOOD estimate out to maybe 50km 

If it is a region I do not know, that is more difficult.

 

You can also look at the size and location  of the cloud shadows cast on the ground, all sorts of useful information to assist judgement

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by RFguy

[facthunter]

On a sunny day with fair weather Cu about, the shadow of clouds on the ground is very clear and that may help judging the accuracy of your judgement of distance. Nev. 

[aro]

In the beginning instrument flying was done using needle, ball and airspeed. The needle (similar to a turn coordinator) was used to keep straight or do standard rate turns, the ball showed wings level/coordinated and airspeed showed nose up or down.

 

I have seen theories that you could do the same with a compass to keep straight, IF you were flying east or west to avoid the acceleration errors you get flying north or south. Personally I doubt it.

 

A GPS would be much better than a compass to substitute for the needle and maintain a course. Particularly if it has a panel view that can show a standard rate turn. An aviation GPS mounted on the panel would be preferable to something like an ipad.

[aro]

6 minutes ago, RFguy said:

5km/8km visibility - that I think would depend on the features on the ground . and features on the horizon .... A bit of haze dust in the air I find radically changes perceptions. 

Aro I think I can tell 5km or 50km , but not much vernier in between.

5km visibility is thorough the air, not clearance from cloud. At 5km visibility you can't see the ground, terrain features, mountains etc. 5km away.

[RFguy]

Yes ARO , I get that.    Generally if I am flying in condix where vis is less than 5km, I'm probably just poking around near the home aerodrome, with  SHWR VCNY,

5km is like 3nm, and about the size of Cowra AD outer boundaries. 

 

In those cases you are probably barely able to see the base leg region from crosswind leg  (necessitating reduced height circuits).

That's pretty damn obvious.