VFR>>IMC • Immediate 180?

[Old Koreelah]

40 minutes ago, RFguy said:

…You can also look at the size and location  of the cloud shadows cast on the ground, all sorts of useful information to assist judgement

Good point, Glen. Recently I was approaching what looked like a solid bank of cloud, but the ground shadows ahead showed otherwise. 

[aro]

20 minutes ago, RFguy said:

Yes ARO , I get that.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the question.

 

2 hours ago, turboplanner said:

would you agree that the longer perspective of the 5km and 8 km in the VFRG is an easier way to judge?

An easier way to judge what?

[RFguy]

I think turbs is referring to judgement of distance. The flufyness of cloud, lack of detail, contrast , really anything the brain can use to allow the stereo vision to function, combined with the lack of detail, and of course to continuously variable nature of the surface means its hard to pick a near distance to cloud  without experience. i think the only reason I can pick say clouds either  5km or 15km away is by using what is on the ground as a reference. If the ground was a completely featureless canvas, that might be more difficult.

[aro]

"5km is an easier way to judge distance" isn't a sentence that makes sense to me. As I said, maybe I'm not understanding the question.

 

But it is potentially more difficult to judge distance from cloud in poor visibility. I have heard of people flying in poor visibility who flew straight into a cloud they didn't see, because it blended into the background poor visibility. With 5km or 8km visibility you might not have a background to see clouds against.

[facthunter]

Your biggest issue when travelling in reduced Vis (though legal at that point) is entering thicker cloud. Anyone can get caught that way, I don't care how long you have been flying. Your MET forecast is a clue here and a good understanding of weather and how cloud forms.' On one occasion I Had fairly thick smoke (from burning off) widespread en route and I was at about 6,000ft and then descended as if everything was normal into unseen low cloud  NOT forecast but on the coastal side of the Ranges in the afternoon so the sea breeze had formed low stratus with an unknown base so pull up out of there and work out a way to get down later.. Nev

[turboplanner]

RFGuy: "I thought the cloud in front was a minute's flying away! and it was in reality 10 seconds away. Suddenly I was in it."

 

i.e. he was looking at cloud to judge the distance away from it.

 

Turboplanner: "Having experienced that would you agree that the longer perspective of the 5 km and 8 km in the VFRG is an easier way to judge"  

 

VFRG: Visual Flight Rules Guide. Diagramme below is from the VFRG>

 

Explanation:

1. Disregard the vertical separations and clouds for this discussion

2. We'll just look at below 10,000'

 

3. There's a little eye for 1000' <3000' and another one for 3000' < 10,000' looking out into the distance.

4. We are required in VFR to fly by reference to the ground or water, so the eye is looking for ground or water.

    If we can see ground or water out to 5 km we are legal; as soon as we can't we get out of there.

    

5. Referencing the ground or water is much more accurate than staring at misty clouds.

 

6. It's not hard to train your eye to recognise 5 km out  while you're flying.

    You can train yourself on 5 km, ro another way is:

     

5 km = 2.7 Nm

100 knots 100 Nm in 60 minutes = 10 Nm in 6 minutes = 1Nm in 0.6 mins

0.6 x 2.7 Nm = 1.62 mins; round out to 2 mins, then practice honing in on objects 2 minutes out from the aircraft as you cruise along.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by turboplanner

[BirdDog]

Have to agree with the autopilot comments.  Hit the heading hold mode.  Dial in 180 and sit tight.

 

[Kenlsa]

Does anyone use an iPhone AH app. If so, which one of the many on offer. For a couple of bucks it might be of use

Ken

[MattP]

30 minutes ago, Kenlsa said:

Does anyone use an iPhone AH app. If so, which one of the many on offer. For a couple of bucks it might be of use

Ken

There are some that use an external gyro / accelerometer but the internal ones aren’t great and you wouldn’t rely on them. Try using one and doing a coordinated turn. The stratux accelerometers do ok but have dedicated hardware, I also wouldn’t bet my life on it.
 

I wouldn’t imagine you would have time or want to take your eyes off the instruments to get it out. 

[KRviator]

12 hours ago, BirdDog said:

Have to agree with the autopilot comments.  Hit the heading hold mode.  Dial in 180 and sit tight.

 

Spot on. 

I went up with an instructor a few months ago and one of the simulations was "You've just entered cloud, what do you do?", whereupon I promptly held then released the CWS button on the stick and simply said "That!"  - though she seemed surprised as though she expected me to throw it straight into a 180* turn to get out. I explained we're above LSALT, the autopilot can fly the plane better, safer, and more smoothly than I can, and it doesn't suffer from spatial disorientation. In this example, the absolute safest thing to do is engage the autopilot, take a few seconds to think about what you need to do, change modes from ROLL HOLD + VS to ALT HOLD + HDG and then dial in your 180* turn rather than trying to do it yourself with bugger-all IF time and hoping it'll work out.

[RFguy]

assuming you actually have an auto pilot

 

[turboplanner]

37 minutes ago, KRviator said:

Spot on. 

I went up with an instructor a few months ago and one of the simulations was "You've just entered cloud, what do you do?", whereupon I promptly held then released the CWS button on the stick and simply said "That!"  - though she seemed surprised as though she expected me to throw it straight into a 180* turn to get out. I explained we're above LSALT, the autopilot can fly the plane better, safer, and more smoothly than I can, and it doesn't suffer from spatial disorientation. In this example, the absolute safest thing to do is engage the autopilot, take a few seconds to think about what you need to do, change modes from ROLL HOLD + VS to ALT HOLD + HDG and then dial in your 180* turn rather than trying to do it yourself with bugger-all IF time and hoping it'll work out.

Good move if you get into it as the instructor intended, but you're still exposed to hills which might be off to the side, and plenty have hit them.

The early turn at 5/8 km not only lets you make the turn visually, but lets you see if the weather has closed in behind you and gives you a 360 degree coice of paddocks for a precautionary landing.

[RFguy]

Depends a bit on the circumstance I guess.

Flying into a wall of Stratus is one thing (how did you manage that ?). turn around, fly out / fly back / fly around etc.

Flying in the lower mountains I have found clouds literally come out of nowhere and when flying surrounded by puffys quickly building up , a  180 turnaround when surrounded by puffys   is likely to not help very much on the odds....

 

That I have found, is a good time to be very rigid about the 1500m clear of cloud in every direction, and be conservative. That 500m actual hole you might have dived through is unlikely to be still there in 2 minutes. 

 

I have foudn this when flying east into the great dividing range toward Bathurst from Cowra. (where the clouds build up suddenly) 

[facthunter]

They used to call it SCUD running and IF you like doing that you'd better know a lot about cloud (and FOG) formation and the terrain you are flying over.. If you are over new country especially approaching Mountain ranges adopt the extremely cautious approach.

    Bit of cloud around but not improving? Give it away and live to fly another day.The base height of the clouds indicate the Condensation Level (Obvious) but it also indicates how much moisture is in the air. IF the airmass cools a bit, there will be a lot more cloud form.. Clouds will indicate the approach of a cold front. Mares Tails (Cirrus) precedes the front by about 300 Kms but the front moves. Nev

[APenNameAndThatA]

12 hours ago, Kenlsa said:

Does anyone use an iPhone AH app. If so, which one of the many on offer. For a couple of bucks it might be of use

Ken

Only if you ALREADY have the app open. 

[kgwilson]

All pilots should know about cloud types, how they form and why. This is covered in meteorology exams. There are plenty of books on the subject including those specific to countries and areas. Glider and Hang Glider Pilots usually know a lot more about clouds than powered pilots as they use them to determine lift, how to get from one place to another, how to determine weather changes, downdrafts and danger and other things.

[BirdDog]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

Good move if you get into it as the instructor intended, but you're still exposed to hills which might be off to the side, and plenty have hit them.

The early turn at 5/8 km not only lets you make the turn visually, but lets you see if the weather has closed in behind you and gives you a 360 degree coice of paddocks for a precautionary landing.

 

Yep.  But let's play this out...

Let's say you are flying in hills etc.  You hit cloud and BOOM!  You are no longer VFR.  I would assume you would not be currently on a head on collision path with a hill.  So... my first reaction (as my instructor trained me) would be to hit the AP Auto Level.  I would then proceed to check my charts to know what is around me.  Maybe, I need to climb 2000ft to get above the hills I am in. So be it.  Dial that in to the AP and get above the terrain.  Then, dial up a heading and head out of trouble.  That is what I was trained to do in my current aircraft.  It was drummed into me.... "The AP will save your life!!"

If someone is flying around hills with no charts reflecting surrounding terrain, then I guess they are more silly than they should be I guess.

If you don't have an AP, then that is totally different I guess.

I have even showed my partner how to engage the auto level in case I ever become incapacitated. She can instantly level the machine and buy us some time.

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, BirdDog said:

 

Yep.  But let's play this out...

Let's say you are flying in hills etc.  You hit cloud and BOOM!  You are no longer VFR.  I would assume you would not be currently on a head on collision path with a hill.  So... my first reaction (as my instructor trained me) would be to hit the AP Auto Level.  I would then proceed to check my charts to know what is around me.  Maybe, I need to climb 2000ft to get above the hills I am in. So be it.  Dial that in to the AP and get above the terrain.  Then, dial up a heading and head out of trouble.  That is what I was trained to do in my current aircraft.  It was drummed into me.... "The AP will save your life!!"

If someone is flying around hills with no charts reflecting surrounding terrain, then I guess they are more silly than they should be I guess.

If you don't have an AP, then that is totally different I guess.

I have even showed my partner how to engage the auto level in case I ever become incapacitated. She can instantly level the machine and buy us some time.

In Recreational Aviation pilots fly under Visual Flight Rules.

 

These require flying by reference to the ground or water:

(a) from 1000 to 3000' - 5000 metres (2.7 Nm) visibility to ground or water

(b) from 3000' - 10,000' - 5000 metres (2.7 Nm) visibility to gound or water

(c) Above 10,000' - 8000 metres visibility to ground or water

 

Legally flying VFR you won't suddenly be in cloud because you'll be at about 2 minutes away from your visibility to the gound. That's the time to turn around.

 

In the years I've been reading accident reports about flying into cloud I'd say about 500 plus pilots have died, and a very common theme is continuing in hill country/scud running where the weather is giving you a clear message that its erratic.

 

The current regulations combining NAIPS forecast with this forward visibility requirement has taken the uncertainty out of the previous method of just being 500' above ground and 500; below cloud without the forward visibility requirement.

 

If you do happen to find yourself in cloud, yes AP is a good first step, but remember that the first hill might be very close and the AP can't see it. If you already have your chart out and the autopilot is flying for you and the aircraft is not bouncing you into the harness and you are ice cool with what's just  happened, you can start to look for peaks, but its difficult in the aircraft. Flight Planning the lowest safe altitude along the route is mandatory for Night VMC using the scale rule (shown below) and drawing lines 10 Nmiles either side of track, so you have to count each hill in a lot of area, and after a few random checks of unfamiliar country you realise how easy it is to miss one, and that's sitting at your desk at home. Much better to be several miles away from where the ground disappears.

 

[MattP]

Agree with the idea that cloud shouldn’t sneak up on you if you’re following the rules. Re: lowest safe I’d just use the grid lsalt rather than calculate it in a pinch but again not an issue for the context of this example in a plane with numbers on the side and using an raa pilot certificate. 
 

What’s consistent with nearly all of the accident reports you read on this is the decision to press on despite deteriorating conditions and signs. The reasons vary but it’s primarily a decision making issue, the idea to avoid it is to train the human factors and decision making to not end up there. The good old superior judgement vs skill idiom.

 

As I mentioned beforehand this also gets highly experienced pilots so it’s not a case of superior skill, it’s recognising the factors / conditions accumulating and breaking the chain by turning around / diverting before you’re in the soup.

[BirdDog]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

In Recreational Aviation pilots fly under Visual Flight Rules.

 

These require flying by reference to the ground or water:

(a) from 1000 to 3000' - 5000 metres (2.7 Nm) visibility to ground or water

(b) from 3000' - 10,000' - 5000 metres (2.7 Nm) visibility to gound or water

(c) Above 10,000' - 8000 metres visibility to ground or water

 

Legally flying VFR you won't suddenly be in cloud because you'll be at about 2 minutes away from your visibility to the gound. That's the time to turn around.

 

In the years I've been reading accident reports about flying into cloud I'd say about 500 plus pilots have died, and a very common theme is continuing in hill country/scud running where the weather is giving you a clear message that its erratic.

 

The current regulations combining NAIPS forecast with this forward visibility requirement has taken the uncertainty out of the previous method of just being 500' above ground and 500; below cloud without the forward visibility requirement.

 

If you do happen to find yourself in cloud, yes AP is a good first step, but remember that the first hill might be very close and the AP can't see it. If you already have your chart out and the autopilot is flying for you and the aircraft is not bouncing you into the harness and you are ice cool with what's just  happened, you can start to look for peaks, but its difficult in the aircraft. Flight Planning the lowest safe altitude along the route is mandatory for Night VMC using the scale rule (shown below) and drawing lines 10 Nmiles either side of track, so you have to count each hill in a lot of area, and after a few random checks of unfamiliar country you realise how easy it is to miss one, and that's sitting at your desk at home. Much better to be several miles away from where the ground disappears.

 

 

 

100% prevention is better than cure.  BUT, with all due respect, it happens.  Is it pilot error - probably - but if we didn't train for situations we could possibly find ourselves in, then there is lots we wouldn't be trained on.  Remember -  "the pilot stalls the aircraft" but yet we practice stalls.  😉

My point is, we should not simple say... "don't fly into cloud" because that leaves the pilot completely unprepared in the event that he or she does.  There should be at least some tools provided to give them half a chance at surviving.

Of course - Do your best as a pilot to fly legally and safely, and avoid non VFR conditions.  However, thinking it will never happen, and not being prepared is asking for trouble.  We are forever students!

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by BirdDog

[turboplanner]

3 minutes ago, BirdDog said:

 

 

100% prevention is better than cure.  BUT, with all due respect, it happens.  Is it pilot error - probably - but if we didn't train for situations we could possibly find ourselves in, then there is lots we wouldn't be trained on.  Remember -  "the pilot stalls the aircraft" but yet we practice stalls.  😉

My point is, we should not simple say... "don't fly into cloud" because that leaves the pilot completely unprepared in the event that he or she does.  There should be at least some tools provided to give them half a chance at surviving.

Of course - Do your best as a pilot to fly legally and safely, and avoid non VFR conditions.  However, thinking it will never happen, and not being prepared is asking for trouble.  We are forever students!

 

Agree; I should have made that clearer. For PPL several hours under the hood are required so you can experience IMC type conditions with an instructor. That could be tacked onto the RPC course, at extra cost, but most aircraft would not have the TSO'd instruments to do it. Having said that, it wouldn't cost a lot more to go up for a couple of one hour sessions in a GA aircraft with Instructor for the experience.

[kgwilson]

Relying on an autopilot is not good aviation management. Get some under the hood instruction and learn how to deal with a possible whiteout situation from using a basic panel. The instruments don't need to be TSOed to work well. I have not found any that don't other than phone apps which can be really good or rubbish.

[BirdDog]

39 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

Relying on an autopilot is not good aviation management. Get some under the hood instruction and learn how to deal with a possible whiteout situation from using a basic panel. The instruments don't need to be TSOed to work well. I have not found any that don't other than phone apps which can be really good or rubbish.

Easier said than done when your licence is not rated for it.  My information is, unless you are enrolled as a student, you can't fly a GA aircraft - with an instructor or otherwise, but correct me if my info is bad.

[turboplanner]

30 minutes ago, BirdDog said:

Easier said than done when your licence is not rated for it.  My information is, unless you are enrolled as a student, you can't fly a GA aircraft - with an instructor or otherwise, but correct me if my info is bad.

Check out the legals with your local GA field.

 

[Yenn]

I doubt that any instructors would deny you a session flying a GA plane because you were not a student. hey would only be cutting off an income source. That is unless it is obvious that you have no intention of being a student.

As far as using the apps on a phone or iPad that simulate an AH they would not work unless they were installed in the plane. The one I have seen gives a steady horizon when it is turned on even if it is held at a 45 degree angle. So they need to be calibrated and that is not going to happen if you are in cloud and spatially dis oriented.