Kyle Communications Posted April 11 Share Posted April 11 I enquired direct to Zongshen about them when they first appeared about 2 or 3 years ago..they wanted you to buy 4 engines to be a dealer and at the time they would have been about 28k aussie..the rotax was 32k aussie 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrendAn Posted April 11 Author Share Posted April 11 8 minutes ago, Kyle Communications said: I enquired direct to Zongshen about them when they first appeared about 2 or 3 years ago..they wanted you to buy 4 engines to be a dealer and at the time they would have been about 28k aussie..the rotax was 32k aussie no one would buy them. the bloke i heard about reckoned he was getting a container load for 12k each but he might have talking crap too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted April 11 Share Posted April 11 What sort of warranty do they come with? If I was going to be first cab off the rank I'd want a water tight warranty and at least 1/2 price of a 912 ULS or less. Too much at stake here for me to even think about it for more than 5 seconds. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spenaroo Posted April 11 Share Posted April 11 (edited) 1 hour ago, BrendAn said: no one would buy them. the bloke i heard about reckoned he was getting a container load for 12k each but he might have talking crap too. could be, what size container.... 40ft with fit a lot of engines. like anything bulk quantity gets much better prices. and freight is a killer for anything pallet sized. whole lot different buying 4 compared to 50 Edited April 11 by spenaroo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danny_galaga Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 (edited) From that video posted earlier, didn't they say it was about 1/3rd the price? Or am I misremembering? if it was say 2/3rd the price or more I'd rather get a Rotax. But at a third, and keeping an eye out for our Canuckistani pal as he tests his, it would be tempting. For homebuilt, I'm still swinging towards an 'on condition' donk. Which is what I went with. kgwilson, in that video, the US warranty is 3 years and I think 500 hours. If i warranty they just swap the motor and send the broken one back to the factory for evaluation. Which is sensible. Edited April 12 by danny_galaga 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFguy Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 In my direct dealing with the mfr , it's about 2/3 the price and I explained to them people if they were goign to spend 20,000, then they'd spend 30,000 and just buy the real thing. so them they offered another 20% off. BrendAn. 12k US or aussiue ? 12k USD sounds right. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrendAn Posted April 12 Author Share Posted April 12 18 minutes ago, RFguy said: In my direct dealing with the mfr , it's about 2/3 the price and I explained to them people if they were goign to spend 20,000, then they'd spend 30,000 and just buy the real thing. so them they offered another 20% off. BrendAn. 12k US or aussiue ? 12k USD sounds right. Must have been USD. Although that was a while I go and I haven't heard that he actually went ahead with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrendAn Posted April 12 Author Share Posted April 12 The point I made in another post was what if they turn out to be every bit as reliable and long lasting as a 912. Then it would worth the 5 or 10k saving. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danny_galaga Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 (edited) 13 minutes ago, BrendAn said: The point I made in another post was what if they turn out to be every bit as reliable and long lasting as a 912. Then it would worth the 5 or 10k saving. A fair point. But people are going to want to see thousands of hours running first. UL Power engines have this problem right now. Not many people want to be the guinea pigs. Mind you, the ZD has a huge advantage of other contenders in that it is a drop in for anything ROtax powered. I know on my plane it would be a pain in the arse to fit anything other than a Rotax compatible... Edited April 12 by danny_galaga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrendAn Posted April 12 Author Share Posted April 12 (edited) 21 minutes ago, danny_galaga said: A fair point. But people are going to want to see thousands of hours running first. UL Power engines have this problem right now. Not many people want to be the guinea pigs. Mind you, the ZD has a huge advantage of other contenders in that it is a drop in for anything ROtax powered. I know on my plane it would be a pain in the arse to fit anything other than a Rotax compatible... Yes. Competing with the reputation of Rotax is a huge task. They need to sell thousands to get the reputation but people won't buy them without it. Edited April 12 by BrendAn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 The video posted the other day said warranty was 3 years or 500 hrs..if it has a actual mechanical issue with the engine they will give you a new one and want to old complete engine back. Thats pretty good and shows they do want to make it a good engine..warranty with Rotax is always a fight and certainly not 3 years. I dont believe anyone in OZ has taken on a dealership yet but you would need a proper service and mech backup shop to do it correctly. If the engine was about 20k aussie then I think its very viable for that price certainly in the beginning of them trying to get units out there. I am not sure though of the current Floods price for a 912ULS but last time I heard it was 35k but dont forget that was no exhaust or oil cooler or radiater either..thats for a out of time swap engine 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 2 hours ago, danny_galaga said: kgwilson, in that video, the US warranty is 3 years and I think 500 hours. If i warranty they just swap the motor and send the broken one back to the factory for evaluation. Which is sensible. Thanks. I didn't watch the video as i have no interest in it. Just what I'd require if I was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 (edited) It's different with a drill or such. You have to remove and install an aircraft motor and a drill is not keeping you up in the sky. Warrantee and no haslles replace is not a SUITABLE substitute for Quality and Reliability which is a big part of why Rotax is worth what you Pay for it. Supposedly. This is a type of engine that needs to have precise fits. It's a pressed up crankshaft for starters.. Very critical. The "replacement engine" is just another one made to the same standard and therefore much cheaper to manufacture. Probably quite a VERY LOW cast to the supplier. I'd rate the value of a Clone as low as 60% of the REAL thing. RAve about the Rotax and then buy something that looks like it HOPING it will be just like it, is not that logical .Are you going to apply that logic to everything that goes in your Plane? A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. Penny -wise and Pound foolish. I'm still not a Rota9xx subscribing to the only motor to use It's an expensive and overly complex option but what at the Moment is holding it's sales %. The manufacturer certainly would't like to have a reliability issue rear it's ugly head, with cloned parts being used. That matter will have to be addressed as integral to the whole matter. Rotax will have to make a statement. Nev Edited April 12 by facthunter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 If you watched the video Nev they only want the motor back for a internal issue to find out why. Also to determine a fix or change to a process .Any thing else thats a bolt on is a replacment part Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 It's what you would say in those circumstances IF your business was structured like that If it's a true copy everything will follow the existing patterns/ processes same as with the real one. Reverse engineering goes for a row once you start Improving it in a particular place..Other parts similarly produced at less cost are still SUSS More likely they just go closer to the thing they copied and their cost will go closer too They would not want evidence of failed motors OUT there. Kyle why not respond to what Points I made? I don't wish to read every bit of what is likely to be propaganda out there and that's all most of it is.. Nevb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueadventures Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 If I was to consider buying one I would be concerned with the use of a silicone (looks like) sealing paste under the rocker cover and fuel pump etc. (Looks like applied by other than a mechanic / technician.) I can imagine what would occur if a piece or two dislodged inside and blocked and oil gallery. Engine back to factory in thinks. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 Quick read through and all I saw was comments about this engine competing with Rotax 912's - seems all have forgotten that Jab engines were very much cheaper than Rotax. Despite the jabs unfortunates reputation, lots of pilots, here & overseas, were/are happy to take the lower cost engine. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area-51 Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 $12k landed $$ Customs Reach To The Printer Tax $$ Freight Unloading Tax $$ Customs Inspection Tax $$ Customs Fumigation Tax $$ Customs Import Duty Tax $$ Customs Incidental Tax $$ Customs Special Tax $$ Customs Open The Crate Tax $$ Customs Weekend Tax $$ Customs GST Tax $$ Port Loading Tax $$ Port Truck Exit Tax $$ Freight Transport Delivery Tax $$ Distributor Trade Supplier Tax $$ Supplier Retail Tax $$ I Want To Be A Millionaire Courier Driver Tax $$ LAME Maintenance Release Tax Final Bill to end user; slightly more than factory door prices 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFguy Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 I have had long discussions with the manufacturer a few years ago. Was positive. Yes, any failure they want back --- and they will pay the freight. I had some discussions with the US importer at Oshkosh last year and they were impressed and had no qualms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 (edited) 11 hours ago, Area-51 said: $12k landed $$ Customs Reach To The Printer Tax $$ Freight Unloading Tax $$ Customs Inspection Tax $$ Customs Fumigation Tax $$ Customs Import Duty Tax $$ Customs Incidental Tax $$ Customs Special Tax $$ Customs Open The Crate Tax $$ Customs Weekend Tax $$ Customs GST Tax $$ Port Loading Tax $$ Port Truck Exit Tax $$ Freight Transport Delivery Tax $$ Distributor Trade Supplier Tax $$ Supplier Retail Tax $$ I Want To Be A Millionaire Courier Driver Tax $$ LAME Maintenance Release Tax Final Bill to end user; slightly more than factory door prices It's been a few years however not long ago aviation products were exempt from import duty. Still had to pay for handling/inspection/ GST/ etc Edited April 12 by skippydiesel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 Regardless of the quality of the CLONE it's NOT available for use in a certified aircraft because that would add to the cost. SAME as with some Jabiru Products . IF your plane requires a certified engine you will maybe make it impossible to fly legally. Once the Warrantee period is over what then? Presumably Parts will be available at SOME? Price. Doing this will add cost to the whole operation. The market will want it. Who pays for it? Up goes the Purchase price to cover the Parts service which usually results is an item being built from Parts being at least double that of buying only a unit. You have packaging inhibiting sales and damage losses costs of unsold items cost or dumping unsold parts so clone price rises sharply after Original motor sales drop and maybe both go down the gurgler. It's a SMALL Market they are both in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area-51 Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 17 hours ago, skippydiesel said: It's been a few years however not long ago aviation products were exempt from import duty. Still had to pay for handling/inspection/ GST/ etc This is true, however, somehow, the rules are confusing when it comes to engines; its complex, like species gender identification for kindergarten to PHD age groups. Engines may have interchangeable components used on non aviation motors; so duty may be applied. The engine may have a "gearbox", so now it is no longer an engine, it is a "power train" which now may fall under a different tariff such as hydraulics; it gets made up on the day... Richard the customs officer might decide he does not like the look of the crate and make believe its full of Revlon product and apply his own "special boy" tariff; which must be paid or else the crate will remain impounded until november's pre christmas impounded public goods auction sale. Even if the crate says Aviation all over it Richard will be steadfast to get his christmas capital raising venture fully allocated. We are very well protected here against undesirable competition causing market price instability. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 Area-51's nailed it. Importation of mechanical items is a licence for Gubbmint, Border Force, the Dept of Agriculture, and a host of other hangers-on, to bugger you senseless, a-la Lord Flashheart in Blackadder. Note, there is no longer any "Customs & Quarantine" Dept, either - importation controls are handled by such a multude of Gubbmint dark forces, they make a trip to Centrelink to lodge a form seem like a picnic in the park. Then there's the Port hangers-on! My God, the charges and fees and services they can think up, would bring tears of joy to a Russian Border Guard who thrives on bribery. There's security charges, recording fees, container storage fees, container opening fees, brokers fees, transport fees, warehousing fees - oh, and GST on top of everything ..... it's like the scenes from a crashed, and split-open money truck! I'm still smarting in the rear end from several machinery importation exercises, and it's been a number of years since I tried it, and I have no desire to ever experience the process again. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted April 14 Share Posted April 14 I got something from the USA which was damaged to useless condition in transit and still paid all the additional costs that applied. . Nev 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danny_galaga Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 Just watched the other video where the American importer is interviewed. Interesting to note ZD first market for their 912 was the UAV market, my thoughts on Ukraine have a precedent 😄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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